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	<title>Comments on: Prologue: Why I Went To &#8220;Love Won Out&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 04:03:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: What to expect from the anti-gay marriage brigade &#124; Jane Carnall &#124; pro-blogger</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-111319</link>
		<dc:creator>What to expect from the anti-gay marriage brigade &#124; Jane Carnall &#124; pro-blogger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 23:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-111319</guid>
		<description>[...] chestnut is a perennial favourite. What would a GCSE in homosexuality look like? There&#8217;s a theory current in some US evangelical circles that the only way someone &#8220;becomes&#8221; gay is if they&#8217;re taught to be gay by the gay [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] chestnut is a perennial favourite. What would a GCSE in homosexuality look like? There&#8217;s a theory current in some US evangelical circles that the only way someone &#8220;becomes&#8221; gay is if they&#8217;re taught to be gay by the gay [...]</p>
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		<title>By: What to expect from the anti-gay marriage brigade &#124; Jane Carnall &#124; Live The Good Life</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-111316</link>
		<dc:creator>What to expect from the anti-gay marriage brigade &#124; Jane Carnall &#124; Live The Good Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Dec 2011 22:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-111316</guid>
		<description>[...] chestnut is a perennial favourite. What would a GCSE in homosexuality look like? There&#8217;s a theory current in some US evangelical circles that the only way someone &#8220;becomes&#8221; gay is if they&#8217;re taught to be gay by the gay [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] chestnut is a perennial favourite. What would a GCSE in homosexuality look like? There&#8217;s a theory current in some US evangelical circles that the only way someone &#8220;becomes&#8221; gay is if they&#8217;re taught to be gay by the gay [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: tips about golf &#187; Box Turtle Bulletin</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-110817</link>
		<dc:creator>tips about golf &#187; Box Turtle Bulletin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Nov 2011 11:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-110817</guid>
		<description>[...] Prologue: Why I Went To &#8220;Love Won Out&#8221; Part 1: What&#8217;s Love Got To Do With &#105;&#116;? Part 2: Parents Struggle With &#8220;&#110;&#111; Exceptions&#8221; Part 3: A Whole New Dialect Part 4: &#105;&#116; Depends &#111;&#110; &#104;&#111;&#119; The Meaning &#111;&#102; the Word &#8220;Change&#8221; Changes Part 5: A Candid Explanation &#102;&#111;&#114; &#8220;Change&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Prologue: Why I Went To &#8220;Love Won Out&#8221; Part 1: What&#8217;s Love Got To Do With &#105;&#116;? Part 2: Parents Struggle With &#8220;&#110;&#111; Exceptions&#8221; Part 3: A Whole New Dialect Part 4: &#105;&#116; Depends &#111;&#110; &#104;&#111;&#119; The Meaning &#111;&#102; the Word &#8220;Change&#8221; Changes Part 5: A Candid Explanation &#102;&#111;&#114; &#8220;Change&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-98280</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-98280</guid>
		<description>Mary,

Have a great party!!  And I&#039;ll be glad to discuss this later if you like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary,</p>
<p>Have a great party!!  And I&#8217;ll be glad to discuss this later if you like.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Southard</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-98279</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Southard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-98279</guid>
		<description>Timothy,

You seem like an intelligent and reasonable guy.  You raise some interesting points about the Bible that have piqued my curiosity.  And I truly might like to have a discussion about them even though I wasn&#039;t looking for it!    I may pick up with this later, but my kids are having a Harry Potter party for the premier tonight and their guests will be coming in 30 minutes.

Thanks for conversing before the world.
Most Sincerely,
Mary Southard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy,</p>
<p>You seem like an intelligent and reasonable guy.  You raise some interesting points about the Bible that have piqued my curiosity.  And I truly might like to have a discussion about them even though I wasn&#8217;t looking for it!    I may pick up with this later, but my kids are having a Harry Potter party for the premier tonight and their guests will be coming in 30 minutes.</p>
<p>Thanks for conversing before the world.<br />
Most Sincerely,<br />
Mary Southard</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-98275</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 00:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-98275</guid>
		<description>Mary,

Now you have me... my familiarity with female anatomy is very limited and I&#039;ll leave that to someone else.

As to your religious objections, I won&#039;t seek to dissuade you.  Challenging someone&#039;s doctrine has never, to my knowledge, served any purpose other than annoying them.

If you wish to, however, I would encourage you to delve into the language, context, and culture of the Scriptures that are frequently quoted as basis for condemnation of homosexuality.  The first time I did so, I found myself startled at what was and wasn&#039;t there.

Perhaps the most fascinating challenge to my presumptions was the story of Sodom.  If you read it, along with the references to it, without &quot;knowing&quot; what it is about, the tale is actually quite different.  As it turns out, the Bible lists a whole number of sins of Sodom and, well, same-sex behavior doesn&#039;t show up.  Also, the Bible lists a host of things that are like Sodom or even worse than Sodom.

And as for what Paul said... I didn&#039;t realize that Paul literally made words up.  The words he used were not part of the local and common vocabulary and the translators had to guess what he meant.  And when you look at the preceding and following verses, you begin to see why those who preach against homosexuality do so using only a verse or so.

Oh, here I go preaching at you.  Sorry, it&#039;s a family trait.

But, anyway, if interested in this subject do some research.  Regardless of what conclusions you reach, you&#039;ll discover that the precision that everyone assumes that Scripture has on this issue is just not there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary,</p>
<p>Now you have me&#8230; my familiarity with female anatomy is very limited and I&#8217;ll leave that to someone else.</p>
<p>As to your religious objections, I won&#8217;t seek to dissuade you.  Challenging someone&#8217;s doctrine has never, to my knowledge, served any purpose other than annoying them.</p>
<p>If you wish to, however, I would encourage you to delve into the language, context, and culture of the Scriptures that are frequently quoted as basis for condemnation of homosexuality.  The first time I did so, I found myself startled at what was and wasn&#8217;t there.</p>
<p>Perhaps the most fascinating challenge to my presumptions was the story of Sodom.  If you read it, along with the references to it, without &#8220;knowing&#8221; what it is about, the tale is actually quite different.  As it turns out, the Bible lists a whole number of sins of Sodom and, well, same-sex behavior doesn&#8217;t show up.  Also, the Bible lists a host of things that are like Sodom or even worse than Sodom.</p>
<p>And as for what Paul said&#8230; I didn&#8217;t realize that Paul literally made words up.  The words he used were not part of the local and common vocabulary and the translators had to guess what he meant.  And when you look at the preceding and following verses, you begin to see why those who preach against homosexuality do so using only a verse or so.</p>
<p>Oh, here I go preaching at you.  Sorry, it&#8217;s a family trait.</p>
<p>But, anyway, if interested in this subject do some research.  Regardless of what conclusions you reach, you&#8217;ll discover that the precision that everyone assumes that Scripture has on this issue is just not there.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Southard</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-98264</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Southard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 21:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-98264</guid>
		<description>Timothy,

Actually, my opinion that body parts were not made or intended, if you will, to go together remains, both sexes included.  I have always believed that.  My inquiry is honest  and I am not in the business today to appeal to gays to change but rather I stumbled on this link while investigating the Love Won Out website.

 I have always wanted to hear an explanation from someone, and never asked.  (It would be interesting to hear an explanation from a woman, also) So, I did ask,and you provided an interesting explanation from the male point of view.

While I have always believed that same sex body parts are not designed or intended to go together, I also do, as you &quot;suspected&quot;, object to homosexual sex on the basis of religious convictions.   

But no hidden agendas here.  I asked a question I wanted an answer to. 



Mary Southard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy,</p>
<p>Actually, my opinion that body parts were not made or intended, if you will, to go together remains, both sexes included.  I have always believed that.  My inquiry is honest  and I am not in the business today to appeal to gays to change but rather I stumbled on this link while investigating the Love Won Out website.</p>
<p> I have always wanted to hear an explanation from someone, and never asked.  (It would be interesting to hear an explanation from a woman, also) So, I did ask,and you provided an interesting explanation from the male point of view.</p>
<p>While I have always believed that same sex body parts are not designed or intended to go together, I also do, as you &#8220;suspected&#8221;, object to homosexual sex on the basis of religious convictions.   </p>
<p>But no hidden agendas here.  I asked a question I wanted an answer to. </p>
<p>Mary Southard</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-98258</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-98258</guid>
		<description>Mary,

Whether by evolutionary process or by divine intent, surely sexual pleasure is some indicator of whether parts were &quot;made to go together.&quot;  (Unless, of course, we view God as capricious and sadistic.)

The male human body experiences significant sexual pleasure from stimulation of the prostate, and its location in the body is most conducive to certain sexual acts between men.

In other words, gay sex feels good.  And not only that, but it feels good in ways that heterosexual sex cannot.  

If we were to base our arguments solely on what is designed to go where, there is strong evidence in favor of a man&#039;s body parts being made for engaging in male-male sex.  Procreating procedures argue in favor of male-female sex.  So the &quot;body parts&quot; evidence taken together argues for a man to have sex with both sexes (and probably with any person that walks by).

Now this appeal to &quot;body parts&quot; is not an argument I make.  But, as it is the argument that you brought here, I have illustrated for you that your premise is flawed.

But somehow, Mary, I very much doubt that your opinion is based on body parts.  I think it extremely unlikely that you will change your views based on the evidence of what was made to go where.

Rather, I suspect that you came up with the &quot;body parts&quot; argument as something that you thought would appeal to gays because you know that your &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; objections are not based in rational argument, but instead in your own personal religious convictions and you are aware that many here may not be of the same religion, denomination, or sect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary,</p>
<p>Whether by evolutionary process or by divine intent, surely sexual pleasure is some indicator of whether parts were &#8220;made to go together.&#8221;  (Unless, of course, we view God as capricious and sadistic.)</p>
<p>The male human body experiences significant sexual pleasure from stimulation of the prostate, and its location in the body is most conducive to certain sexual acts between men.</p>
<p>In other words, gay sex feels good.  And not only that, but it feels good in ways that heterosexual sex cannot.  </p>
<p>If we were to base our arguments solely on what is designed to go where, there is strong evidence in favor of a man&#8217;s body parts being made for engaging in male-male sex.  Procreating procedures argue in favor of male-female sex.  So the &#8220;body parts&#8221; evidence taken together argues for a man to have sex with both sexes (and probably with any person that walks by).</p>
<p>Now this appeal to &#8220;body parts&#8221; is not an argument I make.  But, as it is the argument that you brought here, I have illustrated for you that your premise is flawed.</p>
<p>But somehow, Mary, I very much doubt that your opinion is based on body parts.  I think it extremely unlikely that you will change your views based on the evidence of what was made to go where.</p>
<p>Rather, I suspect that you came up with the &#8220;body parts&#8221; argument as something that you thought would appeal to gays because you know that your <i>real</i> objections are not based in rational argument, but instead in your own personal religious convictions and you are aware that many here may not be of the same religion, denomination, or sect.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-98257</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 20:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-98257</guid>
		<description>Mary asked &quot;Priya, evolved features?&quot;.

Yes, you know any characteristics of an animal such as penises and anuses.  We all evolved from single celled animals and all the different appendages and so on are evolved features.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary asked &#8220;Priya, evolved features?&#8221;.</p>
<p>Yes, you know any characteristics of an animal such as penises and anuses.  We all evolved from single celled animals and all the different appendages and so on are evolved features.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Southard</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220/comment-page-1#comment-98254</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Southard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220#comment-98254</guid>
		<description>You lost me on the significance of the human prostate location there, buddy.  If there is a medical-type explanation that can be offered in a public forum like this and you care to offer it, that would be fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You lost me on the significance of the human prostate location there, buddy.  If there is a medical-type explanation that can be offered in a public forum like this and you care to offer it, that would be fine.</p>
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