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	<title>Comments on: Part 3: &#8220;Love Won Out&#8221;: A Whole New Dialect</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-15646</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-15646</guid>
		<description>Due to an exessive number of spam comments this post has been attracting over the past few weeks, we will be closing comments to this post for the time being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Due to an exessive number of spam comments this post has been attracting over the past few weeks, we will be closing comments to this post for the time being.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-13511</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-13511</guid>
		<description>Brandy,

I want to provide you with one additional resource.  There is a blogger named Pam who blogs at the site &lt;a href=&quot;http://willfulgrace.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Willful Grace&lt;/a&gt;.

Pam was in pretty much the same place that you are at one point.  She happily discussed her marriage to a man that, though same-sex attracted, had found a way to embrace his marriage to her.   But while she shared her husband&#039;s story, she never gloated or sought to hurt gay people.  And she never let her devotion to God get in the way of her love of others or her compassion.

We&#039;ve followed Pam&#039;s story as her husband found the pressures to be too great, her separation and divorce, and now her exploring of possible new romance.  While this experience has shaded her views on love, marriage, and orientation, through it all, she has been the embodyment of decency, humility, and grace.

Though her current views on sexuality may not mirror those of yourself or your husband, I would never hesitate to recommend Pam as a resource to you.  She&#039;s a truly wonderful person and she has the experience to be able to talk with you without any pressure to influence you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brandy,</p>
<p>I want to provide you with one additional resource.  There is a blogger named Pam who blogs at the site <a href="http://willfulgrace.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Willful Grace</a>.</p>
<p>Pam was in pretty much the same place that you are at one point.  She happily discussed her marriage to a man that, though same-sex attracted, had found a way to embrace his marriage to her.   But while she shared her husband&#8217;s story, she never gloated or sought to hurt gay people.  And she never let her devotion to God get in the way of her love of others or her compassion.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve followed Pam&#8217;s story as her husband found the pressures to be too great, her separation and divorce, and now her exploring of possible new romance.  While this experience has shaded her views on love, marriage, and orientation, through it all, she has been the embodyment of decency, humility, and grace.</p>
<p>Though her current views on sexuality may not mirror those of yourself or your husband, I would never hesitate to recommend Pam as a resource to you.  She&#8217;s a truly wonderful person and she has the experience to be able to talk with you without any pressure to influence you.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-13507</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-13507</guid>
		<description>Jim and Timothy,

Thank you both for your kind words.  I will look into the Straight Spouse Network.  I am trying to open a dialogue with my husbands mother and wish to do this with love and kindness.  This issue has been a difficult time for my husband&#039;s family from the time of his telling them about his homosexuality through the time of his telling of our engagemente a space of about 18 years.

Courage is a wonderful group.  Of course it may seem difficult to some as it&#039;s main purpose it to help and encourage those with same sex attraction live chaste lives if they have no desire to or are unable to persue heterosexual marriage.  This is the teaching of the Catholic church.  This approach is not for all but I have met many of the local members who appear to be leading contented and even happy and fulfilled lives knowing they are living their faith to the best of their ability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim and Timothy,</p>
<p>Thank you both for your kind words.  I will look into the Straight Spouse Network.  I am trying to open a dialogue with my husbands mother and wish to do this with love and kindness.  This issue has been a difficult time for my husband&#8217;s family from the time of his telling them about his homosexuality through the time of his telling of our engagemente a space of about 18 years.</p>
<p>Courage is a wonderful group.  Of course it may seem difficult to some as it&#8217;s main purpose it to help and encourage those with same sex attraction live chaste lives if they have no desire to or are unable to persue heterosexual marriage.  This is the teaching of the Catholic church.  This approach is not for all but I have met many of the local members who appear to be leading contented and even happy and fulfilled lives knowing they are living their faith to the best of their ability.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-13497</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-13497</guid>
		<description>Brandy,

thank you for sharing such an intimate part of your life.  

I am happy to hear good things about Courage.  I&#039;ve long thought that their approach was more respectful of individuals than that of some of the more evangelical ex-gay groups.

I do want to bring to your attention another organization, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.straightspouse.org/index.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Straight Spouse Network&lt;/a&gt;, which is organized to meet the needs of mixed-orientation couples and straight spouses of gay persons.  I don&#039;t know too much about them other than that they appear to be fairly non-judgmental about the choices that couples make and seem to provide resources and community for people like yourself.

If at some point either of you feel that you don&#039;t have anyone to talk to or need resources, they may be able to either provide assistance or guide you to who can.

I echo Jim in wishing the both of you much happiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brandy,</p>
<p>thank you for sharing such an intimate part of your life.  </p>
<p>I am happy to hear good things about Courage.  I&#8217;ve long thought that their approach was more respectful of individuals than that of some of the more evangelical ex-gay groups.</p>
<p>I do want to bring to your attention another organization, the <a href="http://www.straightspouse.org/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">Straight Spouse Network</a>, which is organized to meet the needs of mixed-orientation couples and straight spouses of gay persons.  I don&#8217;t know too much about them other than that they appear to be fairly non-judgmental about the choices that couples make and seem to provide resources and community for people like yourself.</p>
<p>If at some point either of you feel that you don&#8217;t have anyone to talk to or need resources, they may be able to either provide assistance or guide you to who can.</p>
<p>I echo Jim in wishing the both of you much happiness.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-13493</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-13493</guid>
		<description>Brandy,

&quot;But we define who we are.&quot; 

Wow. Those six words are more powerful than anything else anyone can say. 

Thank you for sharing your story. We wish you and your husband well in all things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brandy,</p>
<p>&#8220;But we define who we are.&#8221; </p>
<p>Wow. Those six words are more powerful than anything else anyone can say. </p>
<p>Thank you for sharing your story. We wish you and your husband well in all things.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-13492</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-13492</guid>
		<description>I have many thoughts and feelings to communicate here.  I would like to start out saying that my husband was in a same sex relationship for three years when he was in his early twenties.  Yes, he did tell me before we ever even got engaged and I took some time thinking about whether or not to persue the relationship considering the risk. 
 
At the request of a man with same sex attraction we attended a &quot;Love Won Out&quot; conference with him.  There did not seem to be much support for those who are gay and lesbian and I think he walked out with even more confusion than he went in with.  I found it a very emotional experience but also a disturbing one.  There were too many absolutes stated and too much focus on why people are attracted to members of the same sex. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s that easy to define.  Each case is as different as the person involved.  I would have liked to hear more open acknowledgement of the fact that same sex attraction does not just stop and go away.  Perhaps in some situations this may happen I don&#039;t know, my own experience is limited.

I&#039;m sure my husband loves me very much, some things cannot be faked.  And he certainly doesn&#039;t seem to have difficulty with sexual attraction or intercourse with me.  However, he doesn&#039;t like to look at advertisements of half naked men and avoids temptations of this kind.  The same way a heterosexual married man might avoid the temptation of other women.  Or a strict dieter will not buy cake and cookies to keep on hand in the house.  In other words, although less than it used to be, he still has same sex attractions and understands that he might continue to do so his whole life.  He also understands he is a mature adult who, by his own will makes certain decisions regarding his actions.  
                           
It is difficult for us because my husband&#039;s mother is part of a religious group that advocates gay marriage and acceptance into her church.  Not that I think this is a bad thing but she believes we should not be married, that my husband should &quot;accept who he is&quot; and settle down with a nice man.  But we define who we are. My husband spent years in therapy and thankfully found many supportive priests (I have heard many horror stories) and other men with same sex attraction in the Catholic group Courage, with whom he could share his doubts and his feelings. Ultimately he felt unsatisfied and unfullfilled in a homosexual relationship but knew he desired intimacy and sensuality and a family.  Every life journey is as different as every person.

Basically I have enjoyed this website because of the broad view I haven&#039;t found on other sites on either side of the issue.  And I enjoyed this article as it seems to express some of my own feelings about the conference.

Thank you for the most unbiased view I have found so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have many thoughts and feelings to communicate here.  I would like to start out saying that my husband was in a same sex relationship for three years when he was in his early twenties.  Yes, he did tell me before we ever even got engaged and I took some time thinking about whether or not to persue the relationship considering the risk. </p>
<p>At the request of a man with same sex attraction we attended a &#8220;Love Won Out&#8221; conference with him.  There did not seem to be much support for those who are gay and lesbian and I think he walked out with even more confusion than he went in with.  I found it a very emotional experience but also a disturbing one.  There were too many absolutes stated and too much focus on why people are attracted to members of the same sex. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s that easy to define.  Each case is as different as the person involved.  I would have liked to hear more open acknowledgement of the fact that same sex attraction does not just stop and go away.  Perhaps in some situations this may happen I don&#8217;t know, my own experience is limited.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure my husband loves me very much, some things cannot be faked.  And he certainly doesn&#8217;t seem to have difficulty with sexual attraction or intercourse with me.  However, he doesn&#8217;t like to look at advertisements of half naked men and avoids temptations of this kind.  The same way a heterosexual married man might avoid the temptation of other women.  Or a strict dieter will not buy cake and cookies to keep on hand in the house.  In other words, although less than it used to be, he still has same sex attractions and understands that he might continue to do so his whole life.  He also understands he is a mature adult who, by his own will makes certain decisions regarding his actions.  </p>
<p>It is difficult for us because my husband&#8217;s mother is part of a religious group that advocates gay marriage and acceptance into her church.  Not that I think this is a bad thing but she believes we should not be married, that my husband should &#8220;accept who he is&#8221; and settle down with a nice man.  But we define who we are. My husband spent years in therapy and thankfully found many supportive priests (I have heard many horror stories) and other men with same sex attraction in the Catholic group Courage, with whom he could share his doubts and his feelings. Ultimately he felt unsatisfied and unfullfilled in a homosexual relationship but knew he desired intimacy and sensuality and a family.  Every life journey is as different as every person.</p>
<p>Basically I have enjoyed this website because of the broad view I haven&#8217;t found on other sites on either side of the issue.  And I enjoyed this article as it seems to express some of my own feelings about the conference.</p>
<p>Thank you for the most unbiased view I have found so far.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-13091</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-13091</guid>
		<description>&quot;They aren’t “twisting” the language. They are using a different language with different definitions and meanings one apparently incongruent with yours.&quot;

Not just incongruent with ours, incongruent with common usage.  When someone says &quot;change is possible, you don&#039;t have to be gay&quot; it requires you to rework what both change and gay mean.
To most people gay = someone who is sexually, emotionally, and romantically attracted to members of their own sex.  Therefore &quot;change&quot; would mean going from being 100% gay to 100% straight, that the attractions change through sheer will.
In the bizarre world of ex-gay ministry they use the uncommon belief that gay is actually an identity, like republican, or class clown, and involves a set of common behaviors or habits.  To give up that indentity, and behaviors, and instead embrace a different identity and attempt to form what are believed to be stereotypical straight habits the ex-gay industry says folks have &quot;changed&quot; even though the attractions never, ever, do. Every scientific study, even the Jones and Yarhouse admits that every single one of the &quot;success&quot; stories still experiences homosexual attractions.
Your industry uses their very own definition of both &quot;gay&quot; and &quot;change&#039; but NEVER EXPLAINS THIS NEW DEFINITION in any advertising or anything else released to the general public.  

&quot;But your statement implies there is a commonly agreed upon language to begin with. There isn’t.&quot;
You&#039;re not idiots, you&#039;re banking on people having the common definitions of gay and change, and hoping that phrases like &quot;you don&#039;t have to be gay, change is possible&quot; will lead them to you.
If you sincerely thought that there are &quot;no commonly agreed upon language to begin with&quot; you would be outlining what your specific definition is, much like the drug commercials that explain what the medication does and does NOT do up front.
It&#039;s obvious, how many people would be motivated by &quot;You don&#039;t have to identify as gay, you can change the way you view yourself and restrict your actions!&quot;  Much like any snake oil salesman and used car dealer, what you&#039;re not saying is way more important than what you are saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They aren’t “twisting” the language. They are using a different language with different definitions and meanings one apparently incongruent with yours.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not just incongruent with ours, incongruent with common usage.  When someone says &#8220;change is possible, you don&#8217;t have to be gay&#8221; it requires you to rework what both change and gay mean.<br />
To most people gay = someone who is sexually, emotionally, and romantically attracted to members of their own sex.  Therefore &#8220;change&#8221; would mean going from being 100% gay to 100% straight, that the attractions change through sheer will.<br />
In the bizarre world of ex-gay ministry they use the uncommon belief that gay is actually an identity, like republican, or class clown, and involves a set of common behaviors or habits.  To give up that indentity, and behaviors, and instead embrace a different identity and attempt to form what are believed to be stereotypical straight habits the ex-gay industry says folks have &#8220;changed&#8221; even though the attractions never, ever, do. Every scientific study, even the Jones and Yarhouse admits that every single one of the &#8220;success&#8221; stories still experiences homosexual attractions.<br />
Your industry uses their very own definition of both &#8220;gay&#8221; and &#8220;change&#8217; but NEVER EXPLAINS THIS NEW DEFINITION in any advertising or anything else released to the general public.  </p>
<p>&#8220;But your statement implies there is a commonly agreed upon language to begin with. There isn’t.&#8221;<br />
You&#8217;re not idiots, you&#8217;re banking on people having the common definitions of gay and change, and hoping that phrases like &#8220;you don&#8217;t have to be gay, change is possible&#8221; will lead them to you.<br />
If you sincerely thought that there are &#8220;no commonly agreed upon language to begin with&#8221; you would be outlining what your specific definition is, much like the drug commercials that explain what the medication does and does NOT do up front.<br />
It&#8217;s obvious, how many people would be motivated by &#8220;You don&#8217;t have to identify as gay, you can change the way you view yourself and restrict your actions!&#8221;  Much like any snake oil salesman and used car dealer, what you&#8217;re not saying is way more important than what you are saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Spophia</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-4686</link>
		<dc:creator>Spophia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-4686</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Spophia...&lt;/strong&gt;

It would be great help if I could get some clarity on the real issues...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Spophia&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>It would be great help if I could get some clarity on the real issues&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn David</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-322</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-322</guid>
		<description>Jim.... I re-read this today following the link from your post on &quot;A Rare Slip of the Tongue.&quot; Reading this reminded me of how our Catholic Church creates its own reality concerning homosexuality when it confronts it. Priest are told that the individual will be feeling shame at his admission of homosexuality and that a person should be advised not to identify as gay.

I was in the confessional and telling my pastor that I had come to the conclusion that I was gay. He tried to get me to back off of that identification fully expecting me to have shame at the thought. Instead, I was almost giddy from no longer struggling against myself (not with homosexuality, but against myself). That didn&#039;t set well with him; and I got warned about the &quot;gay lifestyle.&quot; To which I offered this missive, &quot;Lifestyle? If anything my lifestyle is as a farmer.&quot;

That confession didn&#039;t end well... I wanted to get back and talk with him, my pastor was also my 3rd cousin; I wanted to explain why I was so happy and what I meant to do with that happiness. But work got in the way, and then a couple of weeks later my cousin died. Since then things haven&#039;t been the same between me and the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim&#8230;. I re-read this today following the link from your post on &#8220;A Rare Slip of the Tongue.&#8221; Reading this reminded me of how our Catholic Church creates its own reality concerning homosexuality when it confronts it. Priest are told that the individual will be feeling shame at his admission of homosexuality and that a person should be advised not to identify as gay.</p>
<p>I was in the confessional and telling my pastor that I had come to the conclusion that I was gay. He tried to get me to back off of that identification fully expecting me to have shame at the thought. Instead, I was almost giddy from no longer struggling against myself (not with homosexuality, but against myself). That didn&#8217;t set well with him; and I got warned about the &#8220;gay lifestyle.&#8221; To which I offered this missive, &#8220;Lifestyle? If anything my lifestyle is as a farmer.&#8221;</p>
<p>That confession didn&#8217;t end well&#8230; I wanted to get back and talk with him, my pastor was also my 3rd cousin; I wanted to explain why I was so happy and what I meant to do with that happiness. But work got in the way, and then a couple of weeks later my cousin died. Since then things haven&#8217;t been the same between me and the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Bartelt</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243/comment-page-1#comment-321</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Bartelt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/03/06/243#comment-321</guid>
		<description>My experience in being one whom they say would both be struggling and gay-identified is that as I became friends with more and more gays and lesbians I found two &quot;truth&quot; patterns more prevalent than others: one pattern is that LGBT people have heard only condemnation from Christianity and have in turn written off the church. Many of them internally believe the church to be wrong, but not necessarily accept that God is going to condemn them to hell as they have been told. They tend to trivialize the church as representing the protestors that line the public entryways to gay pride events. The other &quot;truth&quot; pattern is that many gays and lesbians have found acceptance in branches of Christianity that emphasize the love, grace, and accepting nature of God and are active, participating Christians in those churches. In other words, to use the evangelical language, they have &quot;accepted&quot; Christ. In their own words, however, they would say that Christ has accepted them and has placed them into warm, open, and caring Christian communities. At its best I have found the LGBT community as a whole to be more of what the New Testament describes the church to be than the church itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience in being one whom they say would both be struggling and gay-identified is that as I became friends with more and more gays and lesbians I found two &#8220;truth&#8221; patterns more prevalent than others: one pattern is that LGBT people have heard only condemnation from Christianity and have in turn written off the church. Many of them internally believe the church to be wrong, but not necessarily accept that God is going to condemn them to hell as they have been told. They tend to trivialize the church as representing the protestors that line the public entryways to gay pride events. The other &#8220;truth&#8221; pattern is that many gays and lesbians have found acceptance in branches of Christianity that emphasize the love, grace, and accepting nature of God and are active, participating Christians in those churches. In other words, to use the evangelical language, they have &#8220;accepted&#8221; Christ. In their own words, however, they would say that Christ has accepted them and has placed them into warm, open, and caring Christian communities. At its best I have found the LGBT community as a whole to be more of what the New Testament describes the church to be than the church itself.</p>
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