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	<title>Comments on: International Hate Machine: Hutcherson, Lively and Ledyaev&#8217;s &#8220;Watchmen On the Walls&#8221;</title>
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	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Truth Wins Out</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-6548</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Wins Out</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-6548</guid>
		<description>[...] co-leader of the Slavic skinhead organization Watchmen on the Walls, which has been linked to violence against gays in eastern Europe and blamed, in part, for the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] co-leader of the Slavic skinhead organization Watchmen on the Walls, which has been linked to violence against gays in eastern Europe and blamed, in part, for the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5546</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5546</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m aware of the statement. And speaking of extraordinary claims, you began with one. Yes, the claim that homophobes are almost all secretly gay is an extraordinary claim that has not been backed with extraordinary evidence. 

I&#039;ve read several scores of articles on the study of homophobia over the years, and I&#039;m aware of only one that comes close to trying to make that extraordinary claim - Adams, et al. As far as I know, that study, which is based on a convenience sample and which has several weaknesses that the authors themselves cite (no standards for measuring homophobia, no standards for plethysmography, anxiety as a confounding factor), and which has not, to my knowledge, been duplicated.

That is an extraordinary claim backed by only one study. And those study authors did not treat anxiety as an extraordinary claim, for good reason. From Freund in the 1960&#039;s to Bancroft to McConaghy and so many others who have worked in the field of plethysmography, they&#039;ve noted the problems of trying to determine whether they were dealing with pure sexual arousal, anxiety, or a possible combination in some instances.

And as I said, sexual assault counselors across the country have also reported physiological resonses to extreme anxiety. The average erection under typical circumstances, sure, is almost always sexual arousal. But we&#039;re not talking about typical circimstances. Don&#039;t confuse the two. 

You seem satisfied that your extraordinary claim can be backed by only one study and we should all accept it. But it seems that you would like me to fill this thread with examples to support my non-extraordinary claim. I provided two. You dismissed Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck’s paper as a theory, but it was a theory based on their own study, which they replicated again in 1987. 

We have an entire ex-gay industry that is predicated on one or two small studies. You have based an accusation against one individual on one lone study.  If you cannot see that you are doing the same thing as the ex-gay industry, then I can&#039;t help you. But I can enforce our &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Comments policy&lt;/a&gt;, because that tactic is unacceptable no matter who&#039;s doing it or why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m aware of the statement. And speaking of extraordinary claims, you began with one. Yes, the claim that homophobes are almost all secretly gay is an extraordinary claim that has not been backed with extraordinary evidence. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read several scores of articles on the study of homophobia over the years, and I&#8217;m aware of only one that comes close to trying to make that extraordinary claim &#8211; Adams, et al. As far as I know, that study, which is based on a convenience sample and which has several weaknesses that the authors themselves cite (no standards for measuring homophobia, no standards for plethysmography, anxiety as a confounding factor), and which has not, to my knowledge, been duplicated.</p>
<p>That is an extraordinary claim backed by only one study. And those study authors did not treat anxiety as an extraordinary claim, for good reason. From Freund in the 1960&#8242;s to Bancroft to McConaghy and so many others who have worked in the field of plethysmography, they&#8217;ve noted the problems of trying to determine whether they were dealing with pure sexual arousal, anxiety, or a possible combination in some instances.</p>
<p>And as I said, sexual assault counselors across the country have also reported physiological resonses to extreme anxiety. The average erection under typical circumstances, sure, is almost always sexual arousal. But we&#8217;re not talking about typical circimstances. Don&#8217;t confuse the two. </p>
<p>You seem satisfied that your extraordinary claim can be backed by only one study and we should all accept it. But it seems that you would like me to fill this thread with examples to support my non-extraordinary claim. I provided two. You dismissed Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck’s paper as a theory, but it was a theory based on their own study, which they replicated again in 1987. </p>
<p>We have an entire ex-gay industry that is predicated on one or two small studies. You have based an accusation against one individual on one lone study.  If you cannot see that you are doing the same thing as the ex-gay industry, then I can&#8217;t help you. But I can enforce our <a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">Comments policy</a>, because that tactic is unacceptable no matter who&#8217;s doing it or why.</p>
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		<title>By: Randi Schimnosky</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5541</link>
		<dc:creator>Randi Schimnosky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5541</guid>
		<description>No doubt Jim you&#039;ve heard the statement that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  My claim that erections are caused by arousal is not extraordinary.  The claim that in a given situation the vast majority of erections are caused by ansxiety is the extraordinary claim - it is that claim for which one needs extraordianry evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No doubt Jim you&#8217;ve heard the statement that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  My claim that erections are caused by arousal is not extraordinary.  The claim that in a given situation the vast majority of erections are caused by ansxiety is the extraordinary claim &#8211; it is that claim for which one needs extraordianry evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Randi Schimnosky</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5540</link>
		<dc:creator>Randi Schimnosky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5540</guid>
		<description>Yes, Jim, I read it and re-read it.  It refers to Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck’s &lt;b&gt;theory&lt;/b&gt;.  Theory, not evidence. As to your second post mentioning &quot;evidence&quot; (Bancroft 1989) I&#039;d have to see exactly what evidence is being referred to before I&#039;d accept that as evidence.  I have also experienced an orgasm in an unpleasant sexual encounter but despite my being an unwilling participant I&#039;d be a liar if I said there was no sexual arousal and I think the same would be the case with the victims of sexual assault.

If you ask the vast majority of men how many erections they&#039;ve had as a result of anxiety versus how many they&#039;ve had as a result of sexual arousal I&#039;m sure you&#039;d find that the vast majority, if not all, erections were due to arousal.  Claims that erections were a result of anxiety during  viewing sexual imagery are highly suspect, that they were due to arousal is much much less controversial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Jim, I read it and re-read it.  It refers to Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck’s <b>theory</b>.  Theory, not evidence. As to your second post mentioning &#8220;evidence&#8221; (Bancroft 1989) I&#8217;d have to see exactly what evidence is being referred to before I&#8217;d accept that as evidence.  I have also experienced an orgasm in an unpleasant sexual encounter but despite my being an unwilling participant I&#8217;d be a liar if I said there was no sexual arousal and I think the same would be the case with the victims of sexual assault.</p>
<p>If you ask the vast majority of men how many erections they&#8217;ve had as a result of anxiety versus how many they&#8217;ve had as a result of sexual arousal I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;d find that the vast majority, if not all, erections were due to arousal.  Claims that erections were a result of anxiety during  viewing sexual imagery are highly suspect, that they were due to arousal is much much less controversial.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5535</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5535</guid>
		<description>Randi, please re-read the quote. The authors cited &quot;Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck’s (1983).&quot; 

And for further backup, I do know that one survey of 115 male victims of sexual assault, 20% admitted to both erection and ejaculation, a fact which complicated their ability to prosecute their assailants. It&#039;s unknown how many others experienced this but didn&#039;t report it:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Just under 20% of the men were stimulated by their assailant until they ejaculated. This is a particularly difficult issue for victims, especially when cases are brought before the courts. Although there is evidence that extreme anxiety may lead to erection and ejaculation (Bancroft, 1989), these events may be regarded as a form of consent by lawyers (Sarrell and Masters, 1982).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(King, M., Woollett. M. &quot;Sexually Assaulted Males: 115 Men Consulting a Counseling Service&quot; &lt;em&gt;Archives of Sexual Behavior&lt;/em&gt; 26, no. 6. (1997): pp 579-588.)

I&#039;ve read other reports of women who have experienced orgasm during rapes. Incidentally, I personally know one woman who was gang-raped and experienced orgasm during the ordeal. The shame of that experience only served to complicate her recovery.

But back to my first objection -- Claiming that Hutcherson -- or anyone else -- is a closet case without specific evidence is a nonstarter in this forum. All of the studies in the world mean nothing when talking about a specific individual. If someone has evidence, bring it forward. If not, let it drop. Once and for all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randi, please re-read the quote. The authors cited &#8220;Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck’s (1983).&#8221; </p>
<p>And for further backup, I do know that one survey of 115 male victims of sexual assault, 20% admitted to both erection and ejaculation, a fact which complicated their ability to prosecute their assailants. It&#8217;s unknown how many others experienced this but didn&#8217;t report it:</p>
<blockquote><p>Just under 20% of the men were stimulated by their assailant until they ejaculated. This is a particularly difficult issue for victims, especially when cases are brought before the courts. Although there is evidence that extreme anxiety may lead to erection and ejaculation (Bancroft, 1989), these events may be regarded as a form of consent by lawyers (Sarrell and Masters, 1982).</p></blockquote>
<p>(King, M., Woollett. M. &#8220;Sexually Assaulted Males: 115 Men Consulting a Counseling Service&#8221; <em>Archives of Sexual Behavior</em> 26, no. 6. (1997): pp 579-588.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read other reports of women who have experienced orgasm during rapes. Incidentally, I personally know one woman who was gang-raped and experienced orgasm during the ordeal. The shame of that experience only served to complicate her recovery.</p>
<p>But back to my first objection &#8212; Claiming that Hutcherson &#8212; or anyone else &#8212; is a closet case without specific evidence is a nonstarter in this forum. All of the studies in the world mean nothing when talking about a specific individual. If someone has evidence, bring it forward. If not, let it drop. Once and for all.</p>
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		<title>By: Randi Schimnosky</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5534</link>
		<dc:creator>Randi Schimnosky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5534</guid>
		<description>The male readers can simply ask themselves how often they had erections due to anxiety versus sexual arousal.  I would think very, very few men would say anxiety caused erections are experienced commonly, if at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The male readers can simply ask themselves how often they had erections due to anxiety versus sexual arousal.  I would think very, very few men would say anxiety caused erections are experienced commonly, if at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Randi Schimnosky</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5533</link>
		<dc:creator>Randi Schimnosky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5533</guid>
		<description>I note that the authors themselves claim that anxiety can cause erections but they fail to include any citation to back that up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I note that the authors themselves claim that anxiety can cause erections but they fail to include any citation to back that up.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5532</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5532</guid>
		<description>The whole reason I began this web site is because I object to how science is often misused as a weapon rather than a source of knowledge. 

I beleive the study you&#039;re referring to us Adams, HE, Wright, LW, and Lohr, BA. &quot;Is Homophobia Associated with Homosexual Arousal?&quot; &lt;em&gt;Journal of Abnormal Psychology&lt;/em&gt; 105, no. 3, pp 440-445. By the way, the fact that the Journal is an APA publication does not mean that everything in it bears the APA&#039;s endorsement.

I will let the authors speak for themselves, from their conclusions:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Another explanation of these data is found in Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck&#039;s (1983) theory of the role of anxiety and attention in sexual responding. It is possible that viewing homosexual stimuli causes negative emotions such as anxiety in homophobic men but not in nonhomophobic men. Because anxiety has been shown to enhance arousal and erection, this theory would predict increases in erection in homophobic men. Furthermore, it would indicate that a response to homosexual stimuli is a function of the threat condition rather than sexual arousal per se. Whereas difficulties of objectively evaluating psychoanalytic hypotheses are well-documented, these approaches would predict that sexual arousal is an intrinsic response to homosexual stimuli, whereas Barlow&#039;s (1986) theory would predict that sexual arousal to homosexual stimuli by homophobic individuals is a function of anxiety. These competing notions can and should be evaluated by future research.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In other words, the jury is very much out on the question.

So meanwhile, let&#039;s keep the speculations on sexuality out of it for two reasons. One, I think we are all quite capable of speaking plainly abiyt who we are and I see absolutely no advantage whatsoever to this line of speculation. And two, I object to the idea that asserting that someone is gay, however closeted, is a suitable epithet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole reason I began this web site is because I object to how science is often misused as a weapon rather than a source of knowledge. </p>
<p>I beleive the study you&#8217;re referring to us Adams, HE, Wright, LW, and Lohr, BA. &#8220;Is Homophobia Associated with Homosexual Arousal?&#8221; <em>Journal of Abnormal Psychology</em> 105, no. 3, pp 440-445. By the way, the fact that the Journal is an APA publication does not mean that everything in it bears the APA&#8217;s endorsement.</p>
<p>I will let the authors speak for themselves, from their conclusions:</p>
<blockquote><p>Another explanation of these data is found in Barlow, Sakheim, and Beck&#8217;s (1983) theory of the role of anxiety and attention in sexual responding. It is possible that viewing homosexual stimuli causes negative emotions such as anxiety in homophobic men but not in nonhomophobic men. Because anxiety has been shown to enhance arousal and erection, this theory would predict increases in erection in homophobic men. Furthermore, it would indicate that a response to homosexual stimuli is a function of the threat condition rather than sexual arousal per se. Whereas difficulties of objectively evaluating psychoanalytic hypotheses are well-documented, these approaches would predict that sexual arousal is an intrinsic response to homosexual stimuli, whereas Barlow&#8217;s (1986) theory would predict that sexual arousal to homosexual stimuli by homophobic individuals is a function of anxiety. These competing notions can and should be evaluated by future research.</p></blockquote>
<p>In other words, the jury is very much out on the question.</p>
<p>So meanwhile, let&#8217;s keep the speculations on sexuality out of it for two reasons. One, I think we are all quite capable of speaking plainly abiyt who we are and I see absolutely no advantage whatsoever to this line of speculation. And two, I object to the idea that asserting that someone is gay, however closeted, is a suitable epithet.</p>
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		<title>By: Randi Schimnosky</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5530</link>
		<dc:creator>Randi Schimnosky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5530</guid>
		<description>Yes, Timothy, I&#039;ve heard that theory before, that their arousal was due to anxiety.  To the best of my knowledge there is no scientific evidence that erections are caused by anything other than sexual arousal.  If you have such evidence, please present it.

What we do know is that in the vast majority, if not all, circumstances that erections are caused by sexual arousal.  The idea that a significant number of this 80% who experienced erections were caused by something other than sexual arousal is doubtful, to vastly understate it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Timothy, I&#8217;ve heard that theory before, that their arousal was due to anxiety.  To the best of my knowledge there is no scientific evidence that erections are caused by anything other than sexual arousal.  If you have such evidence, please present it.</p>
<p>What we do know is that in the vast majority, if not all, circumstances that erections are caused by sexual arousal.  The idea that a significant number of this 80% who experienced erections were caused by something other than sexual arousal is doubtful, to vastly understate it.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855/comment-page-1#comment-5525</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/10/05/855#comment-5525</guid>
		<description>Randi,

Your point is well taken but it should be stated that this sample was not in any way representative.  The study did show that those who are homophobic are more physically responsive to homosexual visual stimulation than those that are not homophobic.

But there is an alternate possible explanation presented by Adams, et al. They caution that the response may be to anxiety or threat condition that resulted in physical reaction.

We do know that some instances of extreme homophobia are in response to the individual&#039;s own same-sex attractions.  We also know that in the past year there have been a number of individuals that have been in animosity to civil equality for gay persons who have been revealed to be secretly involved in same-sex sexual activity.

But at present we can apply neither a percetange nor make any presumption about the attractions of persons based on their hostility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randi,</p>
<p>Your point is well taken but it should be stated that this sample was not in any way representative.  The study did show that those who are homophobic are more physically responsive to homosexual visual stimulation than those that are not homophobic.</p>
<p>But there is an alternate possible explanation presented by Adams, et al. They caution that the response may be to anxiety or threat condition that resulted in physical reaction.</p>
<p>We do know that some instances of extreme homophobia are in response to the individual&#8217;s own same-sex attractions.  We also know that in the past year there have been a number of individuals that have been in animosity to civil equality for gay persons who have been revealed to be secretly involved in same-sex sexual activity.</p>
<p>But at present we can apply neither a percetange nor make any presumption about the attractions of persons based on their hostility.</p>
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