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	<title>Comments on: Video: Inside &#8220;Love Won Out&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3977</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3977</guid>
		<description>We could spend from now until kingdom-come thinking up hypotheses that are not open to either verification or falsification and then asking how we can be certain that they’re not true. (Such hypotheses form the bedrock of pseudo-science and superstition.) Here’s one:

Perhaps the reason why I’m gay is that I wasn’t molested as a child. I’m not suggesting, of course, that not being molested automatically causes homosexuality – it very clearly doesn’t – but it could be the cause, or at least an important factor, in some instances. Perhaps a particularly nasty incident of molestation by an adult male might have inoculated me against any potential same-sex attraction and caused me to develop other-sex attraction. Who knows? After all, we have to bear in mind that the causes of sexual orientation are, surely, very complex and poorly understood, and that different people can respond differently to the same things. This being so, how can I rule out the possibility that the absence of molestation was a relevant factor in my case? 

Naturally, I don’t believe the above for one moment, but there’s always the possibility that I could be wrong. I mean to say, you can never be quite sure, can you?

No matter what hypothesis you come up with, you can nearly always find someone to whom it seems to apply and then triumphantly say, “There you are. That proves it!” In the eighteenth century a book appeared entitled Plain Reasons for the Growth of Sodomy [i.e. homosexuality – the word hadn’t then been invented] in England. It claimed that homosexuality was caused by drinking tea and listening to Italian opera. As a friend said to me, “Well, it certainly did the trick in your case, didn’t it?”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We could spend from now until kingdom-come thinking up hypotheses that are not open to either verification or falsification and then asking how we can be certain that they’re not true. (Such hypotheses form the bedrock of pseudo-science and superstition.) Here’s one:</p>
<p>Perhaps the reason why I’m gay is that I wasn’t molested as a child. I’m not suggesting, of course, that not being molested automatically causes homosexuality – it very clearly doesn’t – but it could be the cause, or at least an important factor, in some instances. Perhaps a particularly nasty incident of molestation by an adult male might have inoculated me against any potential same-sex attraction and caused me to develop other-sex attraction. Who knows? After all, we have to bear in mind that the causes of sexual orientation are, surely, very complex and poorly understood, and that different people can respond differently to the same things. This being so, how can I rule out the possibility that the absence of molestation was a relevant factor in my case? </p>
<p>Naturally, I don’t believe the above for one moment, but there’s always the possibility that I could be wrong. I mean to say, you can never be quite sure, can you?</p>
<p>No matter what hypothesis you come up with, you can nearly always find someone to whom it seems to apply and then triumphantly say, “There you are. That proves it!” In the eighteenth century a book appeared entitled Plain Reasons for the Growth of Sodomy [i.e. homosexuality – the word hadn’t then been invented] in England. It claimed that homosexuality was caused by drinking tea and listening to Italian opera. As a friend said to me, “Well, it certainly did the trick in your case, didn’t it?”</p>
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		<title>By: quo mark II</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3952</link>
		<dc:creator>quo mark II</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 03:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3952</guid>
		<description>Well, Ben in Oakland, if that was what you were saying, it was a misleading way to say it. I&#039;d hoped it was clear that I wasn&#039;t suggesting that molestation automatically caused homosexuality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Ben in Oakland, if that was what you were saying, it was a misleading way to say it. I&#8217;d hoped it was clear that I wasn&#8217;t suggesting that molestation automatically caused homosexuality.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3941</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3941</guid>
		<description>No, quo mark, that is not what I was saying at all, as William pointed out. what i was saying was that which causes people to be hetero or homo is far too complex a set of circumstances to be reduced to &quot;I was molested and that&#039;s why I am gay.&quot; It is the pre-existing bias against homosexuality which assumes from the outset that hetero is normal and natural while homo is bad and the result of trauma. As William very correctly points out, without that assumption in play, based on the evidence, one could only conclude that being molested causes people to be hetero</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, quo mark, that is not what I was saying at all, as William pointed out. what i was saying was that which causes people to be hetero or homo is far too complex a set of circumstances to be reduced to &#8220;I was molested and that&#8217;s why I am gay.&#8221; It is the pre-existing bias against homosexuality which assumes from the outset that hetero is normal and natural while homo is bad and the result of trauma. As William very correctly points out, without that assumption in play, based on the evidence, one could only conclude that being molested causes people to be hetero</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3935</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3935</guid>
		<description>Yes, quo mark II. And by the same token, just because not everyone who is molested turns out heterosexual (although most do), we can&#039;t deduce that being molested never causes anyone to be heterosexual. Different people can respond differently to the same things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, quo mark II. And by the same token, just because not everyone who is molested turns out heterosexual (although most do), we can&#8217;t deduce that being molested never causes anyone to be heterosexual. Different people can respond differently to the same things.</p>
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		<title>By: quo mark II</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator>quo mark II</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 08:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3933</guid>
		<description>Ben in Oakland, your argument is the equivalent of saying that because not everyone who is insulted gets mad, therefore being insulted never causes anyone to get mad. Different people can respond differently to the same things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben in Oakland, your argument is the equivalent of saying that because not everyone who is insulted gets mad, therefore being insulted never causes anyone to get mad. Different people can respond differently to the same things.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3891</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3891</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do people really believe the LWO organizers when they say they don’t have a political agenda in deciding which cities they visit?&quot;

Frankly, Patrick, I wouldn&#039;t believe the LWO organizers if they told me they had oatmeal for breakfast.  Love Won Out has a consistent pattern of deliberate deception and continues to illustrate that politics is a far greater concern for them than are the concerns or lives of any actual living breathing ex-gay struggler.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do people really believe the LWO organizers when they say they don’t have a political agenda in deciding which cities they visit?&#8221;</p>
<p>Frankly, Patrick, I wouldn&#8217;t believe the LWO organizers if they told me they had oatmeal for breakfast.  Love Won Out has a consistent pattern of deliberate deception and continues to illustrate that politics is a far greater concern for them than are the concerns or lives of any actual living breathing ex-gay struggler.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3890</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3890</guid>
		<description>PiaSharn,

I&#039;m very sorry to learn about your experience. Specifically of your abuse, and secondarily of the bind it puts you in, where you feel you have to justify yourself. I&#039;m glad that you have come forward to share your experience. 

Your experiences are profoundly important -- far more important when compared to &quot;conforming to stereotype.&quot; I cannot imagine anything more demeaning to you (other than the abuse itself) than when others use stereotypes to make you feel that you are letting LGBT&#039;s down with your own very real experience. You can never let anyone down -- not that way anyway. Please, never be afraid of that. We all conform to some stereotype or another. When there are so many stereotypes to choose from, it&#039;s bound to happen to all of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PiaSharn,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m very sorry to learn about your experience. Specifically of your abuse, and secondarily of the bind it puts you in, where you feel you have to justify yourself. I&#8217;m glad that you have come forward to share your experience. </p>
<p>Your experiences are profoundly important &#8212; far more important when compared to &#8220;conforming to stereotype.&#8221; I cannot imagine anything more demeaning to you (other than the abuse itself) than when others use stereotypes to make you feel that you are letting LGBT&#8217;s down with your own very real experience. You can never let anyone down &#8212; not that way anyway. Please, never be afraid of that. We all conform to some stereotype or another. When there are so many stereotypes to choose from, it&#8217;s bound to happen to all of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3888</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3888</guid>
		<description>Off the topic that is being discussed but relevant to LWO: Do people really believe the LWO organizers when they say they don&#039;t have a political agenda in deciding which cities they visit? I notice that invariably their conferences are held in states that have some sort of gay-rights vote or court decision on the horizon. According to the Focus on the Family website Indiana will likely hold a marriage amendment vote next year. Not surprisingly, they just &quot;happen&quot; to have a LWO conference there telling people homosexuality is not inborn.

This is such a politics-driven organization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off the topic that is being discussed but relevant to LWO: Do people really believe the LWO organizers when they say they don&#8217;t have a political agenda in deciding which cities they visit? I notice that invariably their conferences are held in states that have some sort of gay-rights vote or court decision on the horizon. According to the Focus on the Family website Indiana will likely hold a marriage amendment vote next year. Not surprisingly, they just &#8220;happen&#8221; to have a LWO conference there telling people homosexuality is not inborn.</p>
<p>This is such a politics-driven organization.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3887</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3887</guid>
		<description>Todd,

As best I am aware, no study has yet shown that there is a correlation - or even an increased level of incidence - between sexual orientation and childhood molestation.

It would not surprise me if there was some increase for the reasons I stated above, but those who make this claim do so out of ignorance and limited perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd,</p>
<p>As best I am aware, no study has yet shown that there is a correlation &#8211; or even an increased level of incidence &#8211; between sexual orientation and childhood molestation.</p>
<p>It would not surprise me if there was some increase for the reasons I stated above, but those who make this claim do so out of ignorance and limited perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975/comment-page-1#comment-3886</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/11/05/975#comment-3886</guid>
		<description>Timothy,

I had been thinking about this due to an earlier post and wondered if there was a correlation between being gay and having been molested, it might be due to the fact that many children who later identify as gay are perceived as different and therefore more likely to be targeted by sexual predators due to those differences.  It is an interesting idea.  I wish that those who use these statistics would remember that correlation does not imply a cause and effect relationship.  Like it has all ready been stated, not everyone who was molested ends up gay, and not all gay men and women were molested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy,</p>
<p>I had been thinking about this due to an earlier post and wondered if there was a correlation between being gay and having been molested, it might be due to the fact that many children who later identify as gay are perceived as different and therefore more likely to be targeted by sexual predators due to those differences.  It is an interesting idea.  I wish that those who use these statistics would remember that correlation does not imply a cause and effect relationship.  Like it has all ready been stated, not everyone who was molested ends up gay, and not all gay men and women were molested.</p>
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