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	<title>Comments on: Contrasting Huckabee&#8217;s and Giuliani&#8217;s &#8220;Sin&#8221; Remarks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Bill Ware</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219/comment-page-1#comment-5406</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ware</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 22:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219#comment-5406</guid>
		<description>While Huckabee and Giuliani may be different when it comes to how vigorously they hold to the tenets of their faith, the underlying views of the Baptist and Catholic churches are similar when it comes to homosexual behavior. To Baptists and other fundamentalists, men lying with men as they would with women, is sinful because the Bible says so, calling it an abomination. For Catholics, with their &quot;natural law&quot; perspective, it&#039;s also a sin as would be any sexual activity that doesn&#039;t have the potential to lead to procreation.

Both Baptists and Catholics believe in the redemption of sins through Christ&#039;s sacrifice on the cross. This begins with repentance and/or confession. In either case this must be followed by seeking God&#039;s help though Jesus&#039; positive influence in refraining from committing this sin again. Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery, but then he told her &quot;go and sin no more.&quot;

So while adultery is one of several sexual sins that Giuliani readily admits to, he vows to do his best not to commit this again as far as his present wife is concerned. In the same way, Huckabee admits to the common sins that fallible humans will inevitably commit, while at the same time, he would repent and try to avoid committing these sins in the future once he became aware of them.

When it comes to gay relationships, these are considered to be sexual sins, no matter the love and commitment of the couple involved. One must repent of these sins, and more importantly, one must make an effort to avoid continuing in these sins in the future to ensure one&#039;s salvation. In other words, &quot;go and sin no more.&quot; Any public recognition of civil unions or gay marriage is just condemning these people to hell and must be resisted in every way in the hope that these couples will instead recognize the error of their ways, repent and disavow gay relations in the future in order to ensure their eternal salvation.

Unlike Giuliani who has a more realistic view of the situation that gays find themselves in, Huckabee doesn&#039;t accept the fact that his view of gays is one religious belief among the many views we need to accommodate in a country with diverse religious understandings, or as just one sect&#039;s or several sects interpretation of the Bible among others. Instead he simply &quot;knows&quot; as an indisputable &quot;fact&quot; that &quot;homosexuality is an aberrant, unnatural and sinful lifestyle.&quot;

He finds the idea that a small portion of the population are not born with the typical opposite sex attractions not to be relevant. As far as he is concerned, we are all born with sexual lusts of various kinds. Same sex attractions are just one among many. All such lusts need to be managed and controlled, save for the one man, one woman in marriage exception.

This kind of unshakable certainty is what scares me about those who hold to fundamentalist beliefs. No facts or informed opinions about gays can influence their views. They just know that gay sex is a sin a priori. We don&#039;t need people leading our country whose certainty lies beyond fact or reason. We&#039;ve had enough of that already.

Bill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While Huckabee and Giuliani may be different when it comes to how vigorously they hold to the tenets of their faith, the underlying views of the Baptist and Catholic churches are similar when it comes to homosexual behavior. To Baptists and other fundamentalists, men lying with men as they would with women, is sinful because the Bible says so, calling it an abomination. For Catholics, with their &#8220;natural law&#8221; perspective, it&#8217;s also a sin as would be any sexual activity that doesn&#8217;t have the potential to lead to procreation.</p>
<p>Both Baptists and Catholics believe in the redemption of sins through Christ&#8217;s sacrifice on the cross. This begins with repentance and/or confession. In either case this must be followed by seeking God&#8217;s help though Jesus&#8217; positive influence in refraining from committing this sin again. Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery, but then he told her &#8220;go and sin no more.&#8221;</p>
<p>So while adultery is one of several sexual sins that Giuliani readily admits to, he vows to do his best not to commit this again as far as his present wife is concerned. In the same way, Huckabee admits to the common sins that fallible humans will inevitably commit, while at the same time, he would repent and try to avoid committing these sins in the future once he became aware of them.</p>
<p>When it comes to gay relationships, these are considered to be sexual sins, no matter the love and commitment of the couple involved. One must repent of these sins, and more importantly, one must make an effort to avoid continuing in these sins in the future to ensure one&#8217;s salvation. In other words, &#8220;go and sin no more.&#8221; Any public recognition of civil unions or gay marriage is just condemning these people to hell and must be resisted in every way in the hope that these couples will instead recognize the error of their ways, repent and disavow gay relations in the future in order to ensure their eternal salvation.</p>
<p>Unlike Giuliani who has a more realistic view of the situation that gays find themselves in, Huckabee doesn&#8217;t accept the fact that his view of gays is one religious belief among the many views we need to accommodate in a country with diverse religious understandings, or as just one sect&#8217;s or several sects interpretation of the Bible among others. Instead he simply &#8220;knows&#8221; as an indisputable &#8220;fact&#8221; that &#8220;homosexuality is an aberrant, unnatural and sinful lifestyle.&#8221;</p>
<p>He finds the idea that a small portion of the population are not born with the typical opposite sex attractions not to be relevant. As far as he is concerned, we are all born with sexual lusts of various kinds. Same sex attractions are just one among many. All such lusts need to be managed and controlled, save for the one man, one woman in marriage exception.</p>
<p>This kind of unshakable certainty is what scares me about those who hold to fundamentalist beliefs. No facts or informed opinions about gays can influence their views. They just know that gay sex is a sin a priori. We don&#8217;t need people leading our country whose certainty lies beyond fact or reason. We&#8217;ve had enough of that already.</p>
<p>Bill</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219/comment-page-1#comment-5391</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219#comment-5391</guid>
		<description>There is a distinction between &quot;sin&quot; and &quot;sinful&quot;.  I would have prefered that neither candidate felt compelled to classifly homosexuals in either category.  However, I appreciate Rudy&#039;s disction.  I especially like the fact the he identified himself in the same category.  I can live with that.  It proves that he doesn&#039;t feel that he is on a different level than gays.  I am not sure that The Huck believes that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a distinction between &#8220;sin&#8221; and &#8220;sinful&#8221;.  I would have prefered that neither candidate felt compelled to classifly homosexuals in either category.  However, I appreciate Rudy&#8217;s disction.  I especially like the fact the he identified himself in the same category.  I can live with that.  It proves that he doesn&#8217;t feel that he is on a different level than gays.  I am not sure that The Huck believes that.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219/comment-page-1#comment-5384</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219#comment-5384</guid>
		<description>I have been hesitant to post here as of late because I fear you now really dislike me.

Nevertheless, Tim, I am moved to comment by this piece. It is a very well-reasoned and thought-provoking post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been hesitant to post here as of late because I fear you now really dislike me.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, Tim, I am moved to comment by this piece. It is a very well-reasoned and thought-provoking post.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219/comment-page-1#comment-5381</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 05:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219#comment-5381</guid>
		<description>Zeke,

Absolutely correct.  That typo entirely changed the meaning of that sentence.

Thanks for the heads up.  I made the correction.

As you mentioned the UCC is quite supportive.  Those not quite familiar may recall them from their attempt to advertise their extravagant welcome to all - including gay folk - only to have networks refuse to run the ads.  As the linear descendants of the Pilgrims and the Congregationalists, they have quite a historical connection with our country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zeke,</p>
<p>Absolutely correct.  That typo entirely changed the meaning of that sentence.</p>
<p>Thanks for the heads up.  I made the correction.</p>
<p>As you mentioned the UCC is quite supportive.  Those not quite familiar may recall them from their attempt to advertise their extravagant welcome to all &#8211; including gay folk &#8211; only to have networks refuse to run the ads.  As the linear descendants of the Pilgrims and the Congregationalists, they have quite a historical connection with our country.</p>
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		<title>By: Zeke</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219/comment-page-1#comment-5377</link>
		<dc:creator>Zeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 03:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1219#comment-5377</guid>
		<description>Obama is NOT a member of the Church of Christ, he (like me) is a member of the UNITED Church of Christ.  There is a HUGE difference between the two.  The United Church of Christ is a denomination and not a union of Churches of Christ.

When I read your statement that no candidate is from a denomination that doesn&#039;t see homosexuality as sinful I was ready to fire off a comment to point out that Obama&#039;s doesn&#039;t.  Then I saw that you attempted to point out Obama&#039;s unique status but cringed when I saw that you associated him with the VERY conservative, VERY homophobic Church of Christ.

Please correct this mistatement in your commentary.

Thank you.

Zeke
First United Church of Tampa (UCC)
Tampa, FL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama is NOT a member of the Church of Christ, he (like me) is a member of the UNITED Church of Christ.  There is a HUGE difference between the two.  The United Church of Christ is a denomination and not a union of Churches of Christ.</p>
<p>When I read your statement that no candidate is from a denomination that doesn&#8217;t see homosexuality as sinful I was ready to fire off a comment to point out that Obama&#8217;s doesn&#8217;t.  Then I saw that you attempted to point out Obama&#8217;s unique status but cringed when I saw that you associated him with the VERY conservative, VERY homophobic Church of Christ.</p>
<p>Please correct this mistatement in your commentary.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>Zeke<br />
First United Church of Tampa (UCC)<br />
Tampa, FL</p>
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