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	<title>Comments on: You Drive Like a Woman</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Gab.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5441</link>
		<dc:creator>Gab.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5441</guid>
		<description>I am (gay and) incapable of &quot;learning&quot; how to navigae in my home city since 10 years ago (as in, I can get lost inside of a few hundred meters from home!), none of my gay friends or my partner is like me, (I thought I was alone!)

When I walk in my city (and is not lost), I know &quot;when I am here, that way takes me towards home, that way is somewhat towards where I am going&quot;.
But the way taken is more often shaped like a &quot;C&quot; than like a straight line!
and if i try to take an unknown &quot;shortcut&quot; it always ends with me LATE (as soon as I am in an unfamiliar place, I lose any bearings/directions to where I am or what directions i should take)....

The interresting thing, is give me a map, and I am very good in finding my way in any unfamiliar city, its just that I simply havent got any kind of &quot;internal map&quot;, my friends always thought I was not telling the truth when I am late walking to them, I printed out this article (and some comments) and they said &quot;it certainly describes you perfectly!&quot;
Its good to have something to show them!

(i dont have any idea &quot;why&quot; i lack orientation capacity, but its great to see I am not alone!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am (gay and) incapable of &#8220;learning&#8221; how to navigae in my home city since 10 years ago (as in, I can get lost inside of a few hundred meters from home!), none of my gay friends or my partner is like me, (I thought I was alone!)</p>
<p>When I walk in my city (and is not lost), I know &#8220;when I am here, that way takes me towards home, that way is somewhat towards where I am going&#8221;.<br />
But the way taken is more often shaped like a &#8220;C&#8221; than like a straight line!<br />
and if i try to take an unknown &#8220;shortcut&#8221; it always ends with me LATE (as soon as I am in an unfamiliar place, I lose any bearings/directions to where I am or what directions i should take)&#8230;.</p>
<p>The interresting thing, is give me a map, and I am very good in finding my way in any unfamiliar city, its just that I simply havent got any kind of &#8220;internal map&#8221;, my friends always thought I was not telling the truth when I am late walking to them, I printed out this article (and some comments) and they said &#8220;it certainly describes you perfectly!&#8221;<br />
Its good to have something to show them!</p>
<p>(i dont have any idea &#8220;why&#8221; i lack orientation capacity, but its great to see I am not alone!)</p>
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		<title>By: NancyP</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5425</link>
		<dc:creator>NancyP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5425</guid>
		<description>How is using the position of the sun not using a landmark? I navigate more by compass than &quot;third gas station from the exit&quot;, but sun-generated compass points are also landmarks. 

As Jim notes, landmarks can be useful in towns which are not laid out on rectangular grids, and Cincinnati and WashDC are great examples of irregularly-gridded cities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is using the position of the sun not using a landmark? I navigate more by compass than &#8220;third gas station from the exit&#8221;, but sun-generated compass points are also landmarks. </p>
<p>As Jim notes, landmarks can be useful in towns which are not laid out on rectangular grids, and Cincinnati and WashDC are great examples of irregularly-gridded cities.</p>
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		<title>By: AM</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5421</link>
		<dc:creator>AM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5421</guid>
		<description>Just a thought:  if straight guys are so great at navigation how come the proverbial joke exists that a man *will be lost* and yet not stop to ask for directions?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a thought:  if straight guys are so great at navigation how come the proverbial joke exists that a man *will be lost* and yet not stop to ask for directions?!</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5410</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5410</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;if anyone is interested, the studies that I have read find that men navigate much more using a distance + direction. For example, where the typical woman would navigate the highway by saying “entered the expressway, passed the statue, passed exit abc (almost there), exit xyz” a typical man would navigate by “entered the expressway, drove 10 minutes at 55mph, exit xyz.”&lt;/em&gt;

That&#039;s how I navigate. It&#039;s how I learned to get around Washington DC and Cincinnati Ohio, where the hills, forests and trees provided reliable, recognizable landmarks. But when I moved to flat, treeless Dallas where every freeway exit looked just like the other one, I was always missing my exit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>if anyone is interested, the studies that I have read find that men navigate much more using a distance + direction. For example, where the typical woman would navigate the highway by saying “entered the expressway, passed the statue, passed exit abc (almost there), exit xyz” a typical man would navigate by “entered the expressway, drove 10 minutes at 55mph, exit xyz.”</em></p>
<p>That&#8217;s how I navigate. It&#8217;s how I learned to get around Washington DC and Cincinnati Ohio, where the hills, forests and trees provided reliable, recognizable landmarks. But when I moved to flat, treeless Dallas where every freeway exit looked just like the other one, I was always missing my exit.</p>
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		<title>By: Samantha Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5409</link>
		<dc:creator>Samantha Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5409</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I have to say that it applies to me too. I&#039;m trans, but once I tried to go from Cupertino to San Jose and ended up in San Francisco.

Mike/: There was a control group in this study called &quot;straight men.&quot;

And let&#039;s give Rahman credit while it&#039;s due. He&#039;s not saying that women are worse at spacial reasoning at all. In fact, in 2003 he released a study which concluded that women and gay men were much better at remembering the locations of objects.

What this study was about was whether gay men navigate like women or like heterosexual men. What we do know from previous studies is that women tend to rely more on landmarks for navigation where men tend to use methods that are less reliant on surroundings.

From this we can extrapolate that it would take longer for a woman to be able to successfully navigate an previously unknown location than for men owing to the fact that she is more reliant on landmarks (which she doesn&#039;t know yet).

Therefore, if we want to know if gay men navigate using more male or more female typical strategies a good benchmark would be to put them in an unfamiliar location and see how quickly they learn to find their way around.

PS: if anyone is interested, the studies that I have read find that men navigate much more using a distance + direction. For example, where the typical woman would navigate the highway by saying &quot;entered the expressway, passed the statue, passed exit abc (almost there), exit xyz&quot; a typical man would navigate by &quot;entered the expressway, drove 10 minutes at 55mph, exit xyz.&quot;

Neither strategy is the &quot;better strategy&quot; because each one is better depending on the circumstances. The typical man type navigation is much much better in unfamiliar territory where the typical woman navigation is much much better in familiar territory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I have to say that it applies to me too. I&#8217;m trans, but once I tried to go from Cupertino to San Jose and ended up in San Francisco.</p>
<p>Mike/: There was a control group in this study called &#8220;straight men.&#8221;</p>
<p>And let&#8217;s give Rahman credit while it&#8217;s due. He&#8217;s not saying that women are worse at spacial reasoning at all. In fact, in 2003 he released a study which concluded that women and gay men were much better at remembering the locations of objects.</p>
<p>What this study was about was whether gay men navigate like women or like heterosexual men. What we do know from previous studies is that women tend to rely more on landmarks for navigation where men tend to use methods that are less reliant on surroundings.</p>
<p>From this we can extrapolate that it would take longer for a woman to be able to successfully navigate an previously unknown location than for men owing to the fact that she is more reliant on landmarks (which she doesn&#8217;t know yet).</p>
<p>Therefore, if we want to know if gay men navigate using more male or more female typical strategies a good benchmark would be to put them in an unfamiliar location and see how quickly they learn to find their way around.</p>
<p>PS: if anyone is interested, the studies that I have read find that men navigate much more using a distance + direction. For example, where the typical woman would navigate the highway by saying &#8220;entered the expressway, passed the statue, passed exit abc (almost there), exit xyz&#8221; a typical man would navigate by &#8220;entered the expressway, drove 10 minutes at 55mph, exit xyz.&#8221;</p>
<p>Neither strategy is the &#8220;better strategy&#8221; because each one is better depending on the circumstances. The typical man type navigation is much much better in unfamiliar territory where the typical woman navigation is much much better in familiar territory.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5404</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5404</guid>
		<description>This certainly applies to me: I have a very poor sense of direction, and I do navigate by using landmarks when driving. And although I know perfectly well the difference between right and left, I have to concentrate hard to remember which is which on the spur of the moment if someone stops me in the steet and asks me for directions; otherwise I can find myself saying &quot;turn left&quot; when I mean &quot;turn right&quot;.

But on the other hand, my Dad had the same problems, and he was as straight as they come.

Perhaps Dr Rahman should have kept quiet about this. We already have some soi-disant Christian therapists prescribing abusive treatment for children who don&#039;t conform to gender stereotypes, in order to &quot;prevent&quot; them from growing up gay. If we&#039;re not careful we might find these CAUCs searching for children with &quot;directional cognition deficit&quot;, so that they can be subjected to similar abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This certainly applies to me: I have a very poor sense of direction, and I do navigate by using landmarks when driving. And although I know perfectly well the difference between right and left, I have to concentrate hard to remember which is which on the spur of the moment if someone stops me in the steet and asks me for directions; otherwise I can find myself saying &#8220;turn left&#8221; when I mean &#8220;turn right&#8221;.</p>
<p>But on the other hand, my Dad had the same problems, and he was as straight as they come.</p>
<p>Perhaps Dr Rahman should have kept quiet about this. We already have some soi-disant Christian therapists prescribing abusive treatment for children who don&#8217;t conform to gender stereotypes, in order to &#8220;prevent&#8221; them from growing up gay. If we&#8217;re not careful we might find these CAUCs searching for children with &#8220;directional cognition deficit&#8221;, so that they can be subjected to similar abuse.</p>
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		<title>By: AM</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5400</link>
		<dc:creator>AM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:29:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5400</guid>
		<description>Curious that gay women are similar to their straight sisters in this arena -- as opposed to being as straight men in style and speed of aptitude.

Could it be that the biological basis does tend to lean far more heavily toward gay men than for lesbians?  I would have thought that lesbians would be in league with the straight men for processing skills.  Or is this over analysis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curious that gay women are similar to their straight sisters in this arena &#8212; as opposed to being as straight men in style and speed of aptitude.</p>
<p>Could it be that the biological basis does tend to lean far more heavily toward gay men than for lesbians?  I would have thought that lesbians would be in league with the straight men for processing skills.  Or is this over analysis?</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5395</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5395</guid>
		<description>My Sister can’t read a map if her life depended on it.  I usually would read a map and memorize the route.   What a revelation when you have to drive in Europe!  Thank the good people who gave us a GPS in our rental car and had it programmed to speak directions in English!  I would never have had the ability to remember Strausse this or Strobe that … or whatever those long street names!   Best damn invention for any driver is the GPS.   (Plug for Hertz goes here)

And I give my Sister wide latitude.   She can look at a console at an organ and have no problem adapting to the multi-keyboards, ranks and ranks of stops and the pedals!   THAT takes smarts!   I only have this qwerty keyboard to master so, I&#039;ll forgive her for not being a good co-pilot and a map reader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Sister can’t read a map if her life depended on it.  I usually would read a map and memorize the route.   What a revelation when you have to drive in Europe!  Thank the good people who gave us a GPS in our rental car and had it programmed to speak directions in English!  I would never have had the ability to remember Strausse this or Strobe that … or whatever those long street names!   Best damn invention for any driver is the GPS.   (Plug for Hertz goes here)</p>
<p>And I give my Sister wide latitude.   She can look at a console at an organ and have no problem adapting to the multi-keyboards, ranks and ranks of stops and the pedals!   THAT takes smarts!   I only have this qwerty keyboard to master so, I&#8217;ll forgive her for not being a good co-pilot and a map reader.</p>
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		<title>By: CPT_Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5392</link>
		<dc:creator>CPT_Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5392</guid>
		<description>I think it is pitiful the results of this study have been spun by the media as &quot;gay men and women can&#039;t navigate.&quot; The truth is that women and men tend to navigate differently, and this study shows that gay men tend to navigate more like women than straight men do, which is why it is evidence of a biological basis to homosexuality. 

Of course this means nothing about the specific abilities of an individual man or woman to navigate, just as the tendency of men to be taller than women tells you nothing about the height of a specific individual. 

I travel often for work, and can typically tell when directions are written by a woman or a man. Women&#039;s directions tend to be like &quot;take a right at Main street - you&#039;ll know it because of the Dunkin Donuts across from the car wash at the corner&quot; whereas men&#039;s directions tend to be like &quot;Take route 50 S to route 145 E. 145 is also known as Main street.&quot; Depending on where I am going, sometimes one type of direction works better, sometimes another, depending on the location (e.g., in New England, where streets tend not to be N/S or E/W, women&#039;s directions can be much better). Of course, I now use a Garmin GPS, which takes all the guesswork out of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is pitiful the results of this study have been spun by the media as &#8220;gay men and women can&#8217;t navigate.&#8221; The truth is that women and men tend to navigate differently, and this study shows that gay men tend to navigate more like women than straight men do, which is why it is evidence of a biological basis to homosexuality. </p>
<p>Of course this means nothing about the specific abilities of an individual man or woman to navigate, just as the tendency of men to be taller than women tells you nothing about the height of a specific individual. </p>
<p>I travel often for work, and can typically tell when directions are written by a woman or a man. Women&#8217;s directions tend to be like &#8220;take a right at Main street &#8211; you&#8217;ll know it because of the Dunkin Donuts across from the car wash at the corner&#8221; whereas men&#8217;s directions tend to be like &#8220;Take route 50 S to route 145 E. 145 is also known as Main street.&#8221; Depending on where I am going, sometimes one type of direction works better, sometimes another, depending on the location (e.g., in New England, where streets tend not to be N/S or E/W, women&#8217;s directions can be much better). Of course, I now use a Garmin GPS, which takes all the guesswork out of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220/comment-page-1#comment-5390</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/03/1220#comment-5390</guid>
		<description>tim,
Even though I mentioned above that I have no sense of direction, I can still do puzzles pretty quickly.

I had a roommate in college who had a computer monitor that had to be returned to the store.  She was sitting on the floor with the box, monitor, and the stryofoam packing pieces and said, &quot;Are you spatial?  I can&#039;t figure out how this all goes back in the box.&quot;  I figured it out in about 2 minutes.  I&#039;m good with that kind of spatial configuration.  I can strategize in that tetris sort of way, but I have no sense of direction.  And often my guess is opposite of what it really is -- I attribute that, at least partially, to being a left-sided person. I&#039;m left-handed, left-eyed, left-footed, and a liberal (ha!) so the entire world is backwards to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tim,<br />
Even though I mentioned above that I have no sense of direction, I can still do puzzles pretty quickly.</p>
<p>I had a roommate in college who had a computer monitor that had to be returned to the store.  She was sitting on the floor with the box, monitor, and the stryofoam packing pieces and said, &#8220;Are you spatial?  I can&#8217;t figure out how this all goes back in the box.&#8221;  I figured it out in about 2 minutes.  I&#8217;m good with that kind of spatial configuration.  I can strategize in that tetris sort of way, but I have no sense of direction.  And often my guess is opposite of what it really is &#8212; I attribute that, at least partially, to being a left-sided person. I&#8217;m left-handed, left-eyed, left-footed, and a liberal (ha!) so the entire world is backwards to me.</p>
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