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	<title>Comments on: Today in History: The Gay Men&#8217;s Health Crisis</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Emily K</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5772</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:30:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5772</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your suggestions, Leo. I like Andrew Sullivan&#039;s column. Sometimes he&#039;s a bit too conservative for my taste (POLITICALLY conservative, not socially conservative) but he&#039;s excellent at what he does. I like books that ask tough questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your suggestions, Leo. I like Andrew Sullivan&#8217;s column. Sometimes he&#8217;s a bit too conservative for my taste (POLITICALLY conservative, not socially conservative) but he&#8217;s excellent at what he does. I like books that ask tough questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5767</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5767</guid>
		<description>do numbers give license to promiscuity?

Hmmm. I&#039;m not qualified to say.

The original question had to do with what behaviors made gay men so susceptible to a sexually transmitted disease while other communities where less affected.

As far as the ethics/morality of said behaviors that&#039;s a bigger and somewhat tougher nut to crack. (And it&#039;s clear by your choice of words you believe there are moral issues at stake here.)

If you&#039;re interested in exploring the issue some books to check into are &quot;The Culture of Desire&quot; by Frank Browning, &quot;The Band Played On&quot; by Randy Shilts (sp?), &quot;The Normal Heart&quot; a play by Larry Kramer, &quot;Virtually Normal&quot; by Andrew Sullivan &quot;A Place At The Table&quot; by Bruce Bawer.

These are works by gay men that touch on sexual ethics and aren&#039;t afraid to ask some tough questions. These men and their work have been widely praised by some and also widely vilified by others. It&#039;s a contentious issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>do numbers give license to promiscuity?</p>
<p>Hmmm. I&#8217;m not qualified to say.</p>
<p>The original question had to do with what behaviors made gay men so susceptible to a sexually transmitted disease while other communities where less affected.</p>
<p>As far as the ethics/morality of said behaviors that&#8217;s a bigger and somewhat tougher nut to crack. (And it&#8217;s clear by your choice of words you believe there are moral issues at stake here.)</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re interested in exploring the issue some books to check into are &#8220;The Culture of Desire&#8221; by Frank Browning, &#8220;The Band Played On&#8221; by Randy Shilts (sp?), &#8220;The Normal Heart&#8221; a play by Larry Kramer, &#8220;Virtually Normal&#8221; by Andrew Sullivan &#8220;A Place At The Table&#8221; by Bruce Bawer.</p>
<p>These are works by gay men that touch on sexual ethics and aren&#8217;t afraid to ask some tough questions. These men and their work have been widely praised by some and also widely vilified by others. It&#8217;s a contentious issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily K</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5719</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5719</guid>
		<description>&quot;If you don’t find mister right this week you’ll find him next week, but in the meantime there are needs that have to be answered and that guy standing by the bar is awfully cute…&quot;

Leo, do numbers give license to promiscuity? &quot;needs to be met&quot;? I guess since I&#039;ve never felt this restless... I dunno, even if that girl at the bar IS kinda cute, it doesn&#039;t mean I wanna get laid that night by her.

Jason D, maybe I should talk to lesbians who&#039;ve actually lived during that time period. I know I wasn&#039;t born yet. Also, there are more gay men, but there are more bisexual women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If you don’t find mister right this week you’ll find him next week, but in the meantime there are needs that have to be answered and that guy standing by the bar is awfully cute…&#8221;</p>
<p>Leo, do numbers give license to promiscuity? &#8220;needs to be met&#8221;? I guess since I&#8217;ve never felt this restless&#8230; I dunno, even if that girl at the bar IS kinda cute, it doesn&#8217;t mean I wanna get laid that night by her.</p>
<p>Jason D, maybe I should talk to lesbians who&#8217;ve actually lived during that time period. I know I wasn&#8217;t born yet. Also, there are more gay men, but there are more bisexual women.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5717</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5717</guid>
		<description>&quot;Right, I made a comment previously about how gay men must’ve been so sick of ppl saying “no you can’t have sex your form of sex is filthy criminal and against nature” that they just decided to screw anything and anyone. Why is it lesbians weren’t involved in this? One lesbian friend of mine said, “It’s because they have a male sex drive.” and I said, “what proof do you have of this kind of drive?” and she said, “uh, the penis?” I refuse to see it as a simple issue - Is it true homosexual male couples were scarce until recently? why don’t I hear about the lesbians cruising circuits the way gay men did/do?&quot;

Emily,  I think the biological factor exists, but like you, i&#039;m not convinced it&#039;s the overwhelming tide it&#039;s put forth to be.
But do remember something else, we give men permission to be sluts.  In fact, to a degree men tend to measure one another by their &quot;conquests&quot;.  When I was growing up the stereotype still existed that it was bad for a man to be a virgin, and that getting laid on a regular basis was very important to a &quot;real man&quot;.  That didn&#039;t really start to change until I was already in college.
Look at a movie like The 40-Year Old Virgin, a group of men thinks it&#039;s of dire importance that their friend loose his virginity even though he&#039;s barely interested in it. 
Meanwhile we have 12 year old girls calling each other &quot;sluts&quot; and &quot;whores&quot; if they talk to boys or even kiss them.

I don&#039;t think that Lesbians lack a sex drive, but I do think they don&#039;t have social pressure to prove they are a &quot;real woman&quot; by going out and getting laid left and right.

I think there was also a lot more pressure on women to get married and have kids, so I think a lot of lesbians might have just gone along with whatever was expected of them. 

But, really, I think consulting with an older lesbian or two might give you more insight on it, as I&#039;m just guessing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Right, I made a comment previously about how gay men must’ve been so sick of ppl saying “no you can’t have sex your form of sex is filthy criminal and against nature” that they just decided to screw anything and anyone. Why is it lesbians weren’t involved in this? One lesbian friend of mine said, “It’s because they have a male sex drive.” and I said, “what proof do you have of this kind of drive?” and she said, “uh, the penis?” I refuse to see it as a simple issue &#8211; Is it true homosexual male couples were scarce until recently? why don’t I hear about the lesbians cruising circuits the way gay men did/do?&#8221;</p>
<p>Emily,  I think the biological factor exists, but like you, i&#8217;m not convinced it&#8217;s the overwhelming tide it&#8217;s put forth to be.<br />
But do remember something else, we give men permission to be sluts.  In fact, to a degree men tend to measure one another by their &#8220;conquests&#8221;.  When I was growing up the stereotype still existed that it was bad for a man to be a virgin, and that getting laid on a regular basis was very important to a &#8220;real man&#8221;.  That didn&#8217;t really start to change until I was already in college.<br />
Look at a movie like The 40-Year Old Virgin, a group of men thinks it&#8217;s of dire importance that their friend loose his virginity even though he&#8217;s barely interested in it.<br />
Meanwhile we have 12 year old girls calling each other &#8220;sluts&#8221; and &#8220;whores&#8221; if they talk to boys or even kiss them.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that Lesbians lack a sex drive, but I do think they don&#8217;t have social pressure to prove they are a &#8220;real woman&#8221; by going out and getting laid left and right.</p>
<p>I think there was also a lot more pressure on women to get married and have kids, so I think a lot of lesbians might have just gone along with whatever was expected of them. </p>
<p>But, really, I think consulting with an older lesbian or two might give you more insight on it, as I&#8217;m just guessing.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5706</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5706</guid>
		<description>I profess no expertise in these matters but I would guess there are a number factors that contribute to the differences between how gay men and lesbians express their sexuality.

I do believe there are biological differences--the role of testosterone and other hormones and their role in producing heightened aggression in males. Not for all but for many there is most certainly an element of aggression and competition in the pursuit of sexual satisfaction. The penetrative act itself is viewed by many as an act of aggression--it&#039;s game. Many gay men refer to sex as &quot;play&quot;.

Historical societal expectations I think still inform behavior. Let’s be honest there was always a double standard. Men were always expected to “sow their wild oats” while women were expected to remain demure until it was time to commit. (hence the joke about lesbians renting U-hauls on the second date) Whether we admit it or not elements of that continue to sensitize us in different ways. 

Then there are the numbers. There are considerably more gay men than there are lesbians--men have much larger field that they can play. If you don&#039;t find mister right this week you&#039;ll find him next week, but in the meantime there are needs that have to be answered and that guy standing by the bar is awfully cute...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I profess no expertise in these matters but I would guess there are a number factors that contribute to the differences between how gay men and lesbians express their sexuality.</p>
<p>I do believe there are biological differences&#8211;the role of testosterone and other hormones and their role in producing heightened aggression in males. Not for all but for many there is most certainly an element of aggression and competition in the pursuit of sexual satisfaction. The penetrative act itself is viewed by many as an act of aggression&#8211;it&#8217;s game. Many gay men refer to sex as &#8220;play&#8221;.</p>
<p>Historical societal expectations I think still inform behavior. Let’s be honest there was always a double standard. Men were always expected to “sow their wild oats” while women were expected to remain demure until it was time to commit. (hence the joke about lesbians renting U-hauls on the second date) Whether we admit it or not elements of that continue to sensitize us in different ways. </p>
<p>Then there are the numbers. There are considerably more gay men than there are lesbians&#8211;men have much larger field that they can play. If you don&#8217;t find mister right this week you&#8217;ll find him next week, but in the meantime there are needs that have to be answered and that guy standing by the bar is awfully cute&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Emily K</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5695</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5695</guid>
		<description>Right, I made a comment previously about how gay men must&#039;ve been so sick of ppl saying &quot;no you can&#039;t have sex your form of sex is filthy criminal and against nature&quot; that they just decided to screw anything and anyone. Why is it lesbians weren&#039;t involved in this? One lesbian friend of mine said, &quot;It&#039;s because they have a male sex drive.&quot; and I said, &quot;what proof do you have of this kind of drive?&quot; and she said, &quot;uh, the penis?&quot; I refuse to see it as a simple issue - Is it true homosexual male couples were scarce until recently? why don&#039;t I hear about the lesbians cruising circuits the way gay men did/do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, I made a comment previously about how gay men must&#8217;ve been so sick of ppl saying &#8220;no you can&#8217;t have sex your form of sex is filthy criminal and against nature&#8221; that they just decided to screw anything and anyone. Why is it lesbians weren&#8217;t involved in this? One lesbian friend of mine said, &#8220;It&#8217;s because they have a male sex drive.&#8221; and I said, &#8220;what proof do you have of this kind of drive?&#8221; and she said, &#8220;uh, the penis?&#8221; I refuse to see it as a simple issue &#8211; Is it true homosexual male couples were scarce until recently? why don&#8217;t I hear about the lesbians cruising circuits the way gay men did/do?</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5687</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5687</guid>
		<description>I just re-read my post and it dawns on me that it might seem that I disagree with the role that condoms or more specifically the lack of condoms played in the spread of AIDS. Not the case. It was the lack of condoms coupled the wide spread practice of anal intercourse that made the gay community to especially susceptible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just re-read my post and it dawns on me that it might seem that I disagree with the role that condoms or more specifically the lack of condoms played in the spread of AIDS. Not the case. It was the lack of condoms coupled the wide spread practice of anal intercourse that made the gay community to especially susceptible.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5686</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5686</guid>
		<description>I’d like to expand a little on some of the answers to the first post in the thread.

You need to take yourself back to a time when homosexuality wasn’t just stigmatized it was criminal and prosecuted. It was illegal to be homosexual, it was illegal for perceived homosexuals to congregate or be seen together. In cities like NY where many men lived in rooming houses, small tenement apartments, YMCA’s, privacy was scarce. It would have been difficult for two men to become constant companions. While two “spinsters” could live together without raising eyebrows two confirmed bachelors keeping house would lead to suspicions. And suspicions could lead to discovery. The situation wasn’t conducive to monogamy.

Yes, there were some men who did form couples--many where affluent and could afford to create a buffer of privacy around themselves others had the benefit of being able to choose only to associate in professional and social circles where they were tacitly accepted. For most men this wasn’t an option.

When this historical context  banged up against the sexual liberation movement a lot of pent up frustration and energy was unleashed. After years of fear and hiding many men saw brazen sexuality as a right and a political statement. 

The other factor that contributed to the concentration of AIDS within the gay community lies in the simple fact that being the receptive partner during anal-penile intercourse carries the highest risk for HIV transmission. Very significantly higher than other sexual roles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’d like to expand a little on some of the answers to the first post in the thread.</p>
<p>You need to take yourself back to a time when homosexuality wasn’t just stigmatized it was criminal and prosecuted. It was illegal to be homosexual, it was illegal for perceived homosexuals to congregate or be seen together. In cities like NY where many men lived in rooming houses, small tenement apartments, YMCA’s, privacy was scarce. It would have been difficult for two men to become constant companions. While two “spinsters” could live together without raising eyebrows two confirmed bachelors keeping house would lead to suspicions. And suspicions could lead to discovery. The situation wasn’t conducive to monogamy.</p>
<p>Yes, there were some men who did form couples&#8211;many where affluent and could afford to create a buffer of privacy around themselves others had the benefit of being able to choose only to associate in professional and social circles where they were tacitly accepted. For most men this wasn’t an option.</p>
<p>When this historical context  banged up against the sexual liberation movement a lot of pent up frustration and energy was unleashed. After years of fear and hiding many men saw brazen sexuality as a right and a political statement. </p>
<p>The other factor that contributed to the concentration of AIDS within the gay community lies in the simple fact that being the receptive partner during anal-penile intercourse carries the highest risk for HIV transmission. Very significantly higher than other sexual roles.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5679</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5679</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always found those exaggerated &quot;averages&quot; to be so ridiculous.

At this point in my life, having been out 7 years, and sexually active for just under 2 decades, it still seems ridiculous.
When I was like 25 I remember thinking, &quot;I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve met 100 gay men, let alone 100 I would sleep with who would feel the same way.&quot; --and I live in Chicago, with it&#039;s own gay ghettos and everything!
The only way I think these sorts of stats would be possible is if the person traveled a lot and had absolutely no standards whatsoever.  You look around a gay bar, we&#039;re not all pretty(myself included).  There are plenty of unattractive and average looking men.
One of the other stereotypes is that we&#039;re exceedingly vain, judgemental, and pretentious about appearance.  That doesn&#039;t jibe very well with the notion that we&#039;re getting busy with anything that isn&#039;t nailed down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always found those exaggerated &#8220;averages&#8221; to be so ridiculous.</p>
<p>At this point in my life, having been out 7 years, and sexually active for just under 2 decades, it still seems ridiculous.<br />
When I was like 25 I remember thinking, &#8220;I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve met 100 gay men, let alone 100 I would sleep with who would feel the same way.&#8221; &#8211;and I live in Chicago, with it&#8217;s own gay ghettos and everything!<br />
The only way I think these sorts of stats would be possible is if the person traveled a lot and had absolutely no standards whatsoever.  You look around a gay bar, we&#8217;re not all pretty(myself included).  There are plenty of unattractive and average looking men.<br />
One of the other stereotypes is that we&#8217;re exceedingly vain, judgemental, and pretentious about appearance.  That doesn&#8217;t jibe very well with the notion that we&#8217;re getting busy with anything that isn&#8217;t nailed down.</p>
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		<title>By: Suricou Raven</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266/comment-page-1#comment-5669</link>
		<dc:creator>Suricou Raven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/01/12/1266#comment-5669</guid>
		<description>Got it!

I was thinking of former Congressman Bill Dannemeyer&#039;s claim that &quot;the average homosexual has 1,000 or more partners in a lifetime.&quot; He never said where he got the number from, but since he said it the figure has been circulating anti-gay campaigns, repeated unquestioningly.

To achieve that... even assuming someone starts sexual activity at the unusually low age of 16, and continues until the unusually high age of 70, its 1.5 partners a month. Achieveable, but difficult. Thats just for the average though - by definition, half of the gay population must have a harder time reaching the target. All of which assumes that every gay person will do their part to push up the figure: If just half of them do not take up the party stereotype, its impossible for the other half to get the average high enough no matter how hard they try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got it!</p>
<p>I was thinking of former Congressman Bill Dannemeyer&#8217;s claim that &#8220;the average homosexual has 1,000 or more partners in a lifetime.&#8221; He never said where he got the number from, but since he said it the figure has been circulating anti-gay campaigns, repeated unquestioningly.</p>
<p>To achieve that&#8230; even assuming someone starts sexual activity at the unusually low age of 16, and continues until the unusually high age of 70, its 1.5 partners a month. Achieveable, but difficult. Thats just for the average though &#8211; by definition, half of the gay population must have a harder time reaching the target. All of which assumes that every gay person will do their part to push up the figure: If just half of them do not take up the party stereotype, its impossible for the other half to get the average high enough no matter how hard they try.</p>
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