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	<title>Comments on: Photographer Challenged for Denying Services to Lesbian Couple</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-50932</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 18:31:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-50932</guid>
		<description>Mike,

I don&#039;t know.  I&#039;ve not had success in my efforts to find either follow-up information or the right authorities with whom to inquire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know.  I&#8217;ve not had success in my efforts to find either follow-up information or the right authorities with whom to inquire.</p>
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		<title>By: mike penney</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-50897</link>
		<dc:creator>mike penney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-50897</guid>
		<description>Whatever happened to the appeal on this case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever happened to the appeal on this case?</p>
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		<title>By: Carol Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-38518</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-38518</guid>
		<description>I am a lesbian.  I believe in equal opportunity and equal rights for all.  Still, as Timothy Kincaid wrote above, &quot;Does every slight require punishment?&quot;  No, not when the slight appears to have been sought out.

Vanessa Willock is a University of New Mexico staffer, an EEO Compliance Representative with the Office of Equal Opportunity, where she investigates claims of discrimination and sexual harassment.

I cannot believe that Vanessa Willock innocently inquired about the services of Elane Photography.  The lesbians and gay men I know try to hire LGBT and LGBT-friendly professionals.  It&#039;s not hard to find them.

I think that Vanessa Willock deliberately pursued rejection on the basis of sexual orientation so she could take this business before the New Mexico Human Right Commission.  It was a set-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a lesbian.  I believe in equal opportunity and equal rights for all.  Still, as Timothy Kincaid wrote above, &#8220;Does every slight require punishment?&#8221;  No, not when the slight appears to have been sought out.</p>
<p>Vanessa Willock is a University of New Mexico staffer, an EEO Compliance Representative with the Office of Equal Opportunity, where she investigates claims of discrimination and sexual harassment.</p>
<p>I cannot believe that Vanessa Willock innocently inquired about the services of Elane Photography.  The lesbians and gay men I know try to hire LGBT and LGBT-friendly professionals.  It&#8217;s not hard to find them.</p>
<p>I think that Vanessa Willock deliberately pursued rejection on the basis of sexual orientation so she could take this business before the New Mexico Human Right Commission.  It was a set-up.</p>
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		<title>By: Equality Loudoun &#187; What&#8217;s really at stake in the Elane case?</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-9279</link>
		<dc:creator>Equality Loudoun &#187; What&#8217;s really at stake in the Elane case?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-9279</guid>
		<description>[...] be able to sort these things out without taking up positions behind the barricades. Here is a real-life example of how that reality can be handled 1) without violating the law and 2) without being insulting. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] be able to sort these things out without taking up positions behind the barricades. Here is a real-life example of how that reality can be handled 1) without violating the law and 2) without being insulting. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-9080</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-9080</guid>
		<description>Ron,

You needn&#039;t worry about Elaine Huguenin.  Not a cent is coming from her pocket.  This is a cause célèbre for anti-gay activists and her legal services are being provided free of charge by the Alliance Defense Fund.

If, however, you wish to contribute to an organization that advocates in opposition to equality under the law for gay persons and that seeks to advance discrimination, I&#039;m certain that there are quite a few that will gladly take your contributions.  I won&#039;t be providing a list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ron,</p>
<p>You needn&#8217;t worry about Elaine Huguenin.  Not a cent is coming from her pocket.  This is a cause célèbre for anti-gay activists and her legal services are being provided free of charge by the Alliance Defense Fund.</p>
<p>If, however, you wish to contribute to an organization that advocates in opposition to equality under the law for gay persons and that seeks to advance discrimination, I&#8217;m certain that there are quite a few that will gladly take your contributions.  I won&#8217;t be providing a list.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-9079</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-9079</guid>
		<description>I would like to know where I can send a donation for Elaine Photography to help with legal fees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to know where I can send a donation for Elaine Photography to help with legal fees.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-9075</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-9075</guid>
		<description>Ottoman

I particularly dislike those who come with anti-gay bias and homophobic presumptions but try to hide them behind a pretense of openmindedness and objectivity.

You clearly have a strong desire to assume that gay persons are more &quot;flamboyant&quot; and that gay persons in a pride parade behave more inappropiately than heterosexuals at Mardi Gras.  And nothing we say will dissuade you from your presumptions.

So I won&#039;t try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ottoman</p>
<p>I particularly dislike those who come with anti-gay bias and homophobic presumptions but try to hide them behind a pretense of openmindedness and objectivity.</p>
<p>You clearly have a strong desire to assume that gay persons are more &#8220;flamboyant&#8221; and that gay persons in a pride parade behave more inappropiately than heterosexuals at Mardi Gras.  And nothing we say will dissuade you from your presumptions.</p>
<p>So I won&#8217;t try.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-9074</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-9074</guid>
		<description>&quot;6) No gay gym in Chicago? Ever heard of “Cheetahs” on Clark? It’s listed in all the gay pubs as a gay gym. There are gay gyms listed in most major cities. Sure, some heteros go in, just like gay bars, but it’s a gay gym for sure.&quot;

Check your facts:
1) Cheetah Gym (no &quot;s&quot;)
2) &lt;a href=&quot;http://chicago.metromix.com/style/recreation_facilities/cheetah-gym-andersonville/143286/content&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;They all closed in september of 2007.&lt;/a&gt;
3) Advertising in a gay publication means it is &lt;b&gt;open and accepting of gay people&lt;/b&gt;.  If you look at the link I posted in number 2, the description of the gym says nothing about gays.  In fact if you use that search feature at metromix chicago and look for &quot;gay gym&quot; you get no gym listings.
4) I suppose you&#039;re going to try to tell me the Bally&#039;s and the FFC in that area are &quot;gay gyms&quot; simply because they exist close to gay bars or pubs.  There is a difference between a business that welcomes gays and one that is &quot;for gays&quot;.  Again I ask, &quot;What gay gyms?&quot;


We&#039;re going to have to agree to disagree on the parades, I&#039;ve been to the parade every year since 2001 and I have yet to see anything happening on the floats that is illegal (there are officers every 2 feet!).  Sure, there are drag queens, how are they any different than Santa Claus, Clowns, or any of the other costumed characters at Christmas, Easter, St. Pats, or (yes) Mardi Gras.
Again, the gay pride parade is not gay-only.  It is a celebration of our Pride and unwillingness to be ashamed of who we are, but we do not tell straight people they can&#039;t come and can&#039;t participate. A good deal of the sponsors send employees who are no doubt heterosexual.  GLSEN participates (that stands for gay, lesbian, and &lt;b&gt;STRAIGHT&lt;/b&gt; education network, btw).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;6) No gay gym in Chicago? Ever heard of “Cheetahs” on Clark? It’s listed in all the gay pubs as a gay gym. There are gay gyms listed in most major cities. Sure, some heteros go in, just like gay bars, but it’s a gay gym for sure.&#8221;</p>
<p>Check your facts:<br />
1) Cheetah Gym (no &#8220;s&#8221;)<br />
2) <a href="http://chicago.metromix.com/style/recreation_facilities/cheetah-gym-andersonville/143286/content" rel="nofollow">They all closed in september of 2007.</a><br />
3) Advertising in a gay publication means it is <b>open and accepting of gay people</b>.  If you look at the link I posted in number 2, the description of the gym says nothing about gays.  In fact if you use that search feature at metromix chicago and look for &#8220;gay gym&#8221; you get no gym listings.<br />
4) I suppose you&#8217;re going to try to tell me the Bally&#8217;s and the FFC in that area are &#8220;gay gyms&#8221; simply because they exist close to gay bars or pubs.  There is a difference between a business that welcomes gays and one that is &#8220;for gays&#8221;.  Again I ask, &#8220;What gay gyms?&#8221;</p>
<p>We&#8217;re going to have to agree to disagree on the parades, I&#8217;ve been to the parade every year since 2001 and I have yet to see anything happening on the floats that is illegal (there are officers every 2 feet!).  Sure, there are drag queens, how are they any different than Santa Claus, Clowns, or any of the other costumed characters at Christmas, Easter, St. Pats, or (yes) Mardi Gras.<br />
Again, the gay pride parade is not gay-only.  It is a celebration of our Pride and unwillingness to be ashamed of who we are, but we do not tell straight people they can&#8217;t come and can&#8217;t participate. A good deal of the sponsors send employees who are no doubt heterosexual.  GLSEN participates (that stands for gay, lesbian, and <b>STRAIGHT</b> education network, btw).</p>
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		<title>By: TJ McFisty</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-2#comment-9073</link>
		<dc:creator>TJ McFisty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-9073</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If it’s not a choice, and results in the inability to procreate, as well as feminine features on men, and masculine on women, is it not a birth defect?&lt;/i&gt;

Who says that gays can&#039;t procreate? Being gay doesn&#039;t necessarily preclude one is infertile.

&lt;i&gt;One thing is for certain. If everyone was born gay, the human world would cease to exist within about 115 years. Whether you believe in God, in some supreme being or in evolution, no form of understanding as to how we are here relates to homosexuality.&lt;/i&gt;

Now, I know you&#039;re probably a nice person and all, but this particular statement always gets my hair up in knots. Repeat after me: &quot;Hets do not have a monopoly on having children.&quot; We have modern conveniences as well as the fallback positions in which to carry on this well overpopulated world so don&#039;t worry about becoming extinct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If it’s not a choice, and results in the inability to procreate, as well as feminine features on men, and masculine on women, is it not a birth defect?</i></p>
<p>Who says that gays can&#8217;t procreate? Being gay doesn&#8217;t necessarily preclude one is infertile.</p>
<p><i>One thing is for certain. If everyone was born gay, the human world would cease to exist within about 115 years. Whether you believe in God, in some supreme being or in evolution, no form of understanding as to how we are here relates to homosexuality.</i></p>
<p>Now, I know you&#8217;re probably a nice person and all, but this particular statement always gets my hair up in knots. Repeat after me: &#8220;Hets do not have a monopoly on having children.&#8221; We have modern conveniences as well as the fallback positions in which to carry on this well overpopulated world so don&#8217;t worry about becoming extinct.</p>
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		<title>By: Ottoman</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493/comment-page-1#comment-9072</link>
		<dc:creator>Ottoman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/02/28/1493#comment-9072</guid>
		<description>Jason,

A few comments:

1) I was not and did not exclusively denote only gays having the much bemused &quot;gar-dar&quot;.  I am a hetero and I can often tell a gay person from across a room. Of course, you&#039;d never know many are gay. My point was simply that that some are born with the traits of the opposing gender, hence making it a nature situation.

2) I have been to the gay parade in San Fran and Chicago, and I have seen things taking place by participants (people in the parade) that are plainly illegal under IL and CA law. 

3) I literally laughed out loud at your comparing a day at the beach or Mardi Gras to a gay parade. Both are not hetero only events, as gay parades are gay only (or of the vast, large majority). Additionally, no organization of the acts, approval or exclusion occurs at the places you mentioned.

If there was a national hetero parade, celebrating hetero sexuality, you&#039;d have a direct comparison.

4) As for flamboyance, I expressed my opinion, you expressed your opinion on my opinion. Both are purely opinions. I find over-flamboyance to be wrong, hetero or gay. If someone wants to be accepted, they have to act acceptably to the general public. Act differently, and don&#039;t be surprised if you are not accepted.

5) I used to hang out (out grew my youth) in gay bars in the Pacific North West, as they were the best dance clubs and I liked the music, atmosphere, etc. I understand your points and accept it, but these gay created places separate gays fro the society in general and any time this happens (women&#039;s only clubs, etc) it hurts chances of acceptance.

6) No gay gym in Chicago? Ever heard of &quot;Cheetahs&quot; on Clark? It&#039;s listed in all the gay pubs as a gay gym. There are gay gyms listed in most major cities. Sure, some heteros go in, just like gay bars, but it&#039;s a gay gym for sure.


Otto</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>A few comments:</p>
<p>1) I was not and did not exclusively denote only gays having the much bemused &#8220;gar-dar&#8221;.  I am a hetero and I can often tell a gay person from across a room. Of course, you&#8217;d never know many are gay. My point was simply that that some are born with the traits of the opposing gender, hence making it a nature situation.</p>
<p>2) I have been to the gay parade in San Fran and Chicago, and I have seen things taking place by participants (people in the parade) that are plainly illegal under IL and CA law. </p>
<p>3) I literally laughed out loud at your comparing a day at the beach or Mardi Gras to a gay parade. Both are not hetero only events, as gay parades are gay only (or of the vast, large majority). Additionally, no organization of the acts, approval or exclusion occurs at the places you mentioned.</p>
<p>If there was a national hetero parade, celebrating hetero sexuality, you&#8217;d have a direct comparison.</p>
<p>4) As for flamboyance, I expressed my opinion, you expressed your opinion on my opinion. Both are purely opinions. I find over-flamboyance to be wrong, hetero or gay. If someone wants to be accepted, they have to act acceptably to the general public. Act differently, and don&#8217;t be surprised if you are not accepted.</p>
<p>5) I used to hang out (out grew my youth) in gay bars in the Pacific North West, as they were the best dance clubs and I liked the music, atmosphere, etc. I understand your points and accept it, but these gay created places separate gays fro the society in general and any time this happens (women&#8217;s only clubs, etc) it hurts chances of acceptance.</p>
<p>6) No gay gym in Chicago? Ever heard of &#8220;Cheetahs&#8221; on Clark? It&#8217;s listed in all the gay pubs as a gay gym. There are gay gyms listed in most major cities. Sure, some heteros go in, just like gay bars, but it&#8217;s a gay gym for sure.</p>
<p>Otto</p>
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