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	<title>Comments on: McCain&#8217;s Pastor on Homosexuality</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: McCain&#8217;s Preacher: Gays &#8220;Detestable.&#8221; / Queerty</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-8941</link>
		<dc:creator>McCain&#8217;s Preacher: Gays &#8220;Detestable.&#8221; / Queerty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-8941</guid>
		<description>[...] Box Turtle Bulletin: Outside the bonds of heterosexual marriage, the proper use of sexuality is to honor God by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Box Turtle Bulletin: Outside the bonds of heterosexual marriage, the proper use of sexuality is to honor God by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RichardB</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-8187</link>
		<dc:creator>RichardB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-8187</guid>
		<description>It would be stunningly refreshing if these pastors and theological gas-bags would take time to view the writings in the Bible in the context of their times and places, rather than in the context of their own know-nothing prejudices and preconceptions.  I am tired of people who don&#039;t even know me telling me that they love me, but .... It seems to me that love has no qualifications - and that&#039;s in the Bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be stunningly refreshing if these pastors and theological gas-bags would take time to view the writings in the Bible in the context of their times and places, rather than in the context of their own know-nothing prejudices and preconceptions.  I am tired of people who don&#8217;t even know me telling me that they love me, but &#8230;. It seems to me that love has no qualifications &#8211; and that&#8217;s in the Bible.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-8037</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-8037</guid>
		<description>Yeary states:  “Celibacy is a gift from God…” That is just some pseudo religious psycho-therapy mumbo-jumbo I expect to hear in the next NARTH or at next week’s LDS semi-annual conference.    Oh please spare us this line of reasoning at keeping gays from their pursuit of happiness and keeping them in the closet.   That’s just a too easy of a solution to their “gay” problem and reconciling their past atrocious treatment of their gay brethren.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeary states:  “Celibacy is a gift from God…” That is just some pseudo religious psycho-therapy mumbo-jumbo I expect to hear in the next NARTH or at next week’s LDS semi-annual conference.    Oh please spare us this line of reasoning at keeping gays from their pursuit of happiness and keeping them in the closet.   That’s just a too easy of a solution to their “gay” problem and reconciling their past atrocious treatment of their gay brethren.</p>
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		<title>By: GDad</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-7952</link>
		<dc:creator>GDad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 23:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-7952</guid>
		<description>Celibacy is a gift from God.  Hetsex is a gift from God.  Life is a gift from God.  Death is a gift from God.  Peanut brittle is a gift from God.  Pseudonyms are a gift from God.

WTH?  Simply claiming something is so doesn&#039;t make it so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Celibacy is a gift from God.  Hetsex is a gift from God.  Life is a gift from God.  Death is a gift from God.  Peanut brittle is a gift from God.  Pseudonyms are a gift from God.</p>
<p>WTH?  Simply claiming something is so doesn&#8217;t make it so.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Garrett</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-7951</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Garrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 23:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-7951</guid>
		<description>Repulsive Acts.  Repulsive Acts.  Repulsive Acts.  Never mind that if we&#039;re talking about sexual intimacy here, these are exactly the same acts opposite sex couples engage in every day all over this good earth.  In that one sickening sentence he deftly removes from The Act any sense whatsoever that it might be tender and loving and joyful and mutually life affirming.  No...it is repulsive.  Every moment of tender, affectionate, passionate, joyful, loving intimacy you ever had with the one you love is repulsive.  He is spitting on our hearts even as he avers folks really shouldn&#039;t spit on them.  I have never seen it done more skillfully then this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Repulsive Acts.  Repulsive Acts.  Repulsive Acts.  Never mind that if we&#8217;re talking about sexual intimacy here, these are exactly the same acts opposite sex couples engage in every day all over this good earth.  In that one sickening sentence he deftly removes from The Act any sense whatsoever that it might be tender and loving and joyful and mutually life affirming.  No&#8230;it is repulsive.  Every moment of tender, affectionate, passionate, joyful, loving intimacy you ever had with the one you love is repulsive.  He is spitting on our hearts even as he avers folks really shouldn&#8217;t spit on them.  I have never seen it done more skillfully then this.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Rush</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-7942</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Rush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 18:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-7942</guid>
		<description>The endless dissection and interpretation of the alleged sayings and/or writings of ancient superstitious people may be interesting and valuable as part of the study of human history. But the underlying assumption that this particular collection of writings is the word of a god and should therefore have authority over our lives is just preposterous. 

It&#039;s long past time that we demand hard compelling evidence where religion is concerned. &quot;It&#039;s written it in a holy book&quot; would be laughable if so many people didn&#039;t take it seriously and use it to bludgeon those they don&#039;t like. It&#039;s no wonder Martin Luther condemned and warned against the use of &quot;reason.&quot; It cannot support religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The endless dissection and interpretation of the alleged sayings and/or writings of ancient superstitious people may be interesting and valuable as part of the study of human history. But the underlying assumption that this particular collection of writings is the word of a god and should therefore have authority over our lives is just preposterous. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s long past time that we demand hard compelling evidence where religion is concerned. &#8220;It&#8217;s written it in a holy book&#8221; would be laughable if so many people didn&#8217;t take it seriously and use it to bludgeon those they don&#8217;t like. It&#8217;s no wonder Martin Luther condemned and warned against the use of &#8220;reason.&#8221; It cannot support religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-7939</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-7939</guid>
		<description>&quot;Celibacy is a gift from God, and a chaste life is God’s expectation. Only God can provide the spiritual strength for this difficult commitment.&quot;

Timothy-- a bigger problem with that is this. What if G doesn&#039;t give you the gift? The Catholic Church maintains that celibacy is a charisma, a literal gift from G. and not everyone is granted that charisma, nor the priesthood, or all the other charisma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Celibacy is a gift from God, and a chaste life is God’s expectation. Only God can provide the spiritual strength for this difficult commitment.&#8221;</p>
<p>Timothy&#8211; a bigger problem with that is this. What if G doesn&#8217;t give you the gift? The Catholic Church maintains that celibacy is a charisma, a literal gift from G. and not everyone is granted that charisma, nor the priesthood, or all the other charisma.</p>
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		<title>By: werdna</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-7938</link>
		<dc:creator>werdna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-7938</guid>
		<description>Josh, you might want to look into the origins of the German word &quot;Kulturkampf,&quot; it&#039;s not what you appear to think it is.

As for Yearey&#039;s article, it&#039;s interesting and something I hadn&#039;t read about before (despite the discussion of McCain&#039;s ever-changing claims about his religious affiliation).  I guess it kind of good that McCain&#039;s pastor isn&#039;t a frothing anti-gay bigot, just a mild-mannered &quot;love the sinner, not the sin&quot; type.  His article is still full of pretty harsh condemnations of homosexuality, and to be honest, I&#039;m not conviced he doesn&#039;t subscribe to some version of the &quot;gays can change&quot; theory.  For instance, what exactly is he referring to in in this paragraph:

&quot;We eventually located help in a church that had sensed God&#039;s calling to provide redemptive help. Their sense of mission saved my young friend from much pain and heartbreak. The solution was not simple, but something good continues to happen in Mark&#039;s life. It took commitment, encouragement, prayer, and relentless family support to reach a redemptive conclusion.&quot;

What was that &quot;redemptive conclusion?&quot;  Celibacy?  Conversion?  Eunicure?  He never says, but the incredible vagueness of that description is kind of unsettling.  

Even if Yeary&#039;s not a super anti-gay crusader, we shouldn&#039;t lose sight of the fact that policy-wise McCain&#039;s still on the wrong side of virtually every significant issue of concern to the LGBT community.  To his credit he voted against a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage, but beyond that he remains the worst candidate in the race on gay issues.  

There&#039;s no question that he hasn&#039;t ever been and won&#039;t ever be an &quot;unwaivering ally of gay equality,&quot; the question is how bad would he be?  While he may not have any personal inclination to use gay issues as a political weapon, he&#039;s still the candidate of a party that has had no hesitation about using just such tactics.  I&#039;m not the slightest bit confident that he won&#039;t stoop to attacking the Democratic candidate (whoever it ends up being) on gay-related issues.  The guy&#039;s got to convince those doubters that he&#039;s a &quot;real conservative&quot; after all--no better way to prove your social conservative bona fides than to hate on the gays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, you might want to look into the origins of the German word &#8220;Kulturkampf,&#8221; it&#8217;s not what you appear to think it is.</p>
<p>As for Yearey&#8217;s article, it&#8217;s interesting and something I hadn&#8217;t read about before (despite the discussion of McCain&#8217;s ever-changing claims about his religious affiliation).  I guess it kind of good that McCain&#8217;s pastor isn&#8217;t a frothing anti-gay bigot, just a mild-mannered &#8220;love the sinner, not the sin&#8221; type.  His article is still full of pretty harsh condemnations of homosexuality, and to be honest, I&#8217;m not conviced he doesn&#8217;t subscribe to some version of the &#8220;gays can change&#8221; theory.  For instance, what exactly is he referring to in in this paragraph:</p>
<p>&#8220;We eventually located help in a church that had sensed God&#8217;s calling to provide redemptive help. Their sense of mission saved my young friend from much pain and heartbreak. The solution was not simple, but something good continues to happen in Mark&#8217;s life. It took commitment, encouragement, prayer, and relentless family support to reach a redemptive conclusion.&#8221;</p>
<p>What was that &#8220;redemptive conclusion?&#8221;  Celibacy?  Conversion?  Eunicure?  He never says, but the incredible vagueness of that description is kind of unsettling.  </p>
<p>Even if Yeary&#8217;s not a super anti-gay crusader, we shouldn&#8217;t lose sight of the fact that policy-wise McCain&#8217;s still on the wrong side of virtually every significant issue of concern to the LGBT community.  To his credit he voted against a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage, but beyond that he remains the worst candidate in the race on gay issues.  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s no question that he hasn&#8217;t ever been and won&#8217;t ever be an &#8220;unwaivering ally of gay equality,&#8221; the question is how bad would he be?  While he may not have any personal inclination to use gay issues as a political weapon, he&#8217;s still the candidate of a party that has had no hesitation about using just such tactics.  I&#8217;m not the slightest bit confident that he won&#8217;t stoop to attacking the Democratic candidate (whoever it ends up being) on gay-related issues.  The guy&#8217;s got to convince those doubters that he&#8217;s a &#8220;real conservative&#8221; after all&#8211;no better way to prove your social conservative bona fides than to hate on the gays.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-7937</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-7937</guid>
		<description>The actual phrase in Leviticus literally translated is &quot;sleep the sleep of a woman.&#039; As I understand it, no one actually knows what the phrase means, though traditionally, it has been held to mean something about gay sex. but it doesn&#039;t appear anywhere else to give us a clue.

Some other observations that cloud this is-so-clear condemnation.

The passage, often quoted as condemning homosex, actually refers only to men, and probably only to anal intercourse, which is how a recent meeting of conservative rabbis interpreted it. To call it a clear condemnaiton of homosex is to engage in wishful thinking-- wishful, bigoted, hate-filled, judgmental thinking, to be precise.

The KJV, which is the one usually quoted, was based on documents which were only 300 or 400 years old at the time. I don&#039;t know enough about the history of these documents, and whether they still exist, but i can say that relying on documents which are copies of copuies of copies 1200 years after the fact is not a very valid historical process, especially when you are able to trace the changes, inconsistencies, and mis-translations.

The same word abomination in this passage is also used to describe the eating of shrimp, and refers to idolotrous practices. In other words, the word &quot;abomination&quot; does not mean what WE think it means, nore does it mean to us what it meant to King James, and since it is a latin translation of a hebrew word, may mean even less than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The actual phrase in Leviticus literally translated is &#8220;sleep the sleep of a woman.&#8217; As I understand it, no one actually knows what the phrase means, though traditionally, it has been held to mean something about gay sex. but it doesn&#8217;t appear anywhere else to give us a clue.</p>
<p>Some other observations that cloud this is-so-clear condemnation.</p>
<p>The passage, often quoted as condemning homosex, actually refers only to men, and probably only to anal intercourse, which is how a recent meeting of conservative rabbis interpreted it. To call it a clear condemnaiton of homosex is to engage in wishful thinking&#8211; wishful, bigoted, hate-filled, judgmental thinking, to be precise.</p>
<p>The KJV, which is the one usually quoted, was based on documents which were only 300 or 400 years old at the time. I don&#8217;t know enough about the history of these documents, and whether they still exist, but i can say that relying on documents which are copies of copuies of copies 1200 years after the fact is not a very valid historical process, especially when you are able to trace the changes, inconsistencies, and mis-translations.</p>
<p>The same word abomination in this passage is also used to describe the eating of shrimp, and refers to idolotrous practices. In other words, the word &#8220;abomination&#8221; does not mean what WE think it means, nore does it mean to us what it meant to King James, and since it is a latin translation of a hebrew word, may mean even less than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673/comment-page-1#comment-7932</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/03/21/1673#comment-7932</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m grateful that McCain&#039;s pastor is far more balanced than most would seem to be.  As far as celibacy goes, well, as a Catholic, that&#039;s what my church teaches.  I can&#039;t entirely agree with that position any more, however, I find that advising a gay Christian to adopt a celibate lifestyle is far less repugnant to me than telling them they must go through reorientation &quot;therapy&quot;.  Historically speaking, celibacy is more in line with what we know of traditional Christian theology.  As times have changed in the last century or so, that position needs to be re-examined.  For those gay men and women who are truly called to the celibate life, I wish them all the best and hope that they will grow closer to God.  I just hope that they can deal with the sense of loneliness better than I ever did.

The failing that I see with the whole reparative therapy movement is that they are trying to force people to fit into their interpretation of the Gospel of the 1st century, instead of articulating the Gospel in light of today&#039;s reality.

And I really hate the use of the term &quot;culture war&quot;.  The Nazis had a similar phrase, Kulturkampf. Raises my hackles, that does.  I daresay that most gay people simply want to be left to live their lives in peace with the same rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that anyone else has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m grateful that McCain&#8217;s pastor is far more balanced than most would seem to be.  As far as celibacy goes, well, as a Catholic, that&#8217;s what my church teaches.  I can&#8217;t entirely agree with that position any more, however, I find that advising a gay Christian to adopt a celibate lifestyle is far less repugnant to me than telling them they must go through reorientation &#8220;therapy&#8221;.  Historically speaking, celibacy is more in line with what we know of traditional Christian theology.  As times have changed in the last century or so, that position needs to be re-examined.  For those gay men and women who are truly called to the celibate life, I wish them all the best and hope that they will grow closer to God.  I just hope that they can deal with the sense of loneliness better than I ever did.</p>
<p>The failing that I see with the whole reparative therapy movement is that they are trying to force people to fit into their interpretation of the Gospel of the 1st century, instead of articulating the Gospel in light of today&#8217;s reality.</p>
<p>And I really hate the use of the term &#8220;culture war&#8221;.  The Nazis had a similar phrase, Kulturkampf. Raises my hackles, that does.  I daresay that most gay people simply want to be left to live their lives in peace with the same rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that anyone else has.</p>
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