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	<title>Comments on: Anti-Discrimination or Anti-Information?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: stefano</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8945</link>
		<dc:creator>stefano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8945</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The service did not do the matching, it only provides listings which users can search. And as I understand it, Roommate.com does not do matching either.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hmmmm. Ok. Maybe I misread something. I was under the impression that Roommates themselves provided a first level match from using required information that users could then refine with further searches.

I did catch the further clarifying reasonings of the court regarding an entity&#039;s indirect contributions by *requiring* said information as a term of doing business with them.

&lt;blockquote&gt;As for going to court, that’s what this ruling determined: that it can go to trial.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes. I&#039;d agree with this. That the ruling made a decision that such entities were not immune from prosecution.

I&#039;m unsure, however, if Roommates will actually be taken to court unless their is plausible evidence that there was discrimination. That&#039;s why I spent so much time mentioning &quot;solutions&quot; Roomates could take to avoid that regarding Roommates no longer *requiring* such info, but making it voluntary.

I also think caution needs to be used in not conflating the free association rights of individual citizens with the business practices of a business entity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The service did not do the matching, it only provides listings which users can search. And as I understand it, Roommate.com does not do matching either.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hmmmm. Ok. Maybe I misread something. I was under the impression that Roommates themselves provided a first level match from using required information that users could then refine with further searches.</p>
<p>I did catch the further clarifying reasonings of the court regarding an entity&#8217;s indirect contributions by *requiring* said information as a term of doing business with them.</p>
<blockquote><p>As for going to court, that’s what this ruling determined: that it can go to trial.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes. I&#8217;d agree with this. That the ruling made a decision that such entities were not immune from prosecution.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m unsure, however, if Roommates will actually be taken to court unless their is plausible evidence that there was discrimination. That&#8217;s why I spent so much time mentioning &#8220;solutions&#8221; Roomates could take to avoid that regarding Roommates no longer *requiring* such info, but making it voluntary.</p>
<p>I also think caution needs to be used in not conflating the free association rights of individual citizens with the business practices of a business entity.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8943</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8943</guid>
		<description>Guys,

Some clarification.

I&#039;ve not used Roommate.com but I am familiar with a similar product.  The service did not do the matching, it only provides listings which users can search.  And as I understand it, Roommate.com does not do matching either.

They allowed customers to use that field as a search variable such that Joe Renter could search for listing only of gay men, only of straight women, or various combinations, as well as other variables such as price, size, location, etc.  It would then provide those members that fit the search criteria.

The court, if I understand correctly, found the discrimination to be occuring by the end user but objected to the rental service &lt;b&gt;facilitating&lt;/b&gt; the customer&#039;s discrimination.

If a potential roommate eliminated choices because they have children, the court can&#039;t control that.  But it can blame Roommate.com for making it easy.

As for going to court, that&#039;s what this ruling determined: that it can go to trial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys,</p>
<p>Some clarification.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve not used Roommate.com but I am familiar with a similar product.  The service did not do the matching, it only provides listings which users can search.  And as I understand it, Roommate.com does not do matching either.</p>
<p>They allowed customers to use that field as a search variable such that Joe Renter could search for listing only of gay men, only of straight women, or various combinations, as well as other variables such as price, size, location, etc.  It would then provide those members that fit the search criteria.</p>
<p>The court, if I understand correctly, found the discrimination to be occuring by the end user but objected to the rental service <b>facilitating</b> the customer&#8217;s discrimination.</p>
<p>If a potential roommate eliminated choices because they have children, the court can&#8217;t control that.  But it can blame Roommate.com for making it easy.</p>
<p>As for going to court, that&#8217;s what this ruling determined: that it can go to trial.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8929</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 07:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8929</guid>
		<description>This case is the result of overreaching by the Fair Housing Councils of the San Fernando Valley and San Diego. Apparently they have too much time on their hands.

These councils clearly have no respect for freedom of association: &lt;em&gt;&quot;They claimed that allowing member to search and filter by such things as sex or orientation was facilitated them in discrimination.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

So what? We have a perfect right to discriminate in choosing roommates!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This case is the result of overreaching by the Fair Housing Councils of the San Fernando Valley and San Diego. Apparently they have too much time on their hands.</p>
<p>These councils clearly have no respect for freedom of association: <em>&#8220;They claimed that allowing member to search and filter by such things as sex or orientation was facilitated them in discrimination.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>So what? We have a perfect right to discriminate in choosing roommates!</p>
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		<title>By: stefano</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8927</link>
		<dc:creator>stefano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 05:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8927</guid>
		<description>Afterthought...

&quot;With the voluntary information, the users would be doing the searching and screening.&quot;

I&#039;m not even sure this would be necessary. I can foresee one of two things regarding this:

1. Roomate continues to provide the same type of matching they did previously, only the matching will be done via a combination of allowed required info (e.g., perhaps, income, location, number of bedrooms; i.e. non personal attributes) in combination with the voluntary info supplied by users... OR

2. Roomate does a first level match for those who sign up with then, then users do a second level search within those matchs to refine for personal attribution preferences.

I would exect the first scenario to be the more likely one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Afterthought&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;With the voluntary information, the users would be doing the searching and screening.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not even sure this would be necessary. I can foresee one of two things regarding this:</p>
<p>1. Roomate continues to provide the same type of matching they did previously, only the matching will be done via a combination of allowed required info (e.g., perhaps, income, location, number of bedrooms; i.e. non personal attributes) in combination with the voluntary info supplied by users&#8230; OR</p>
<p>2. Roomate does a first level match for those who sign up with then, then users do a second level search within those matchs to refine for personal attribution preferences.</p>
<p>I would exect the first scenario to be the more likely one.</p>
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		<title>By: stefano</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8926</link>
		<dc:creator>stefano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 04:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8926</guid>
		<description>&quot;I wouldn’t expect this to actually go to trial unless there was plausible cause that discrimination was occuring.&quot;

Let me try to clarify this a bit more.

The court wasn&#039;t ruling that Roomates *was* being discriminatory.

Basically, the outcome of the court decision was a ruling that entities such as Roommates could be held liable, that is such sites would loose their immunity.

This opens the door for when such entities are being discriminatory in practice they can now be prosecuted, whereas prior to the ruling the could not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I wouldn’t expect this to actually go to trial unless there was plausible cause that discrimination was occuring.&#8221;</p>
<p>Let me try to clarify this a bit more.</p>
<p>The court wasn&#8217;t ruling that Roomates *was* being discriminatory.</p>
<p>Basically, the outcome of the court decision was a ruling that entities such as Roommates could be held liable, that is such sites would loose their immunity.</p>
<p>This opens the door for when such entities are being discriminatory in practice they can now be prosecuted, whereas prior to the ruling the could not.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: stefano</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8925</link>
		<dc:creator>stefano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 04:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8925</guid>
		<description>This is the distinction I see:

Roommate: &quot;because it requires users to provide information about gender, sexual orientation and whether they have children, and then uses the information to screen people for matches.&quot;

Roommate was doing the screening and matching.

With the voluntary information, the users would be doing the searching and screening.

I&#039;m not saying that Roommate in practice was being discriminatory. But that I understand how the court reached its decision.

I wouldn&#039;t expect this to actually go to trial unless there was plausible cause that discrimination was occuring.

But I don&#039;t think the court was looking at this as just a single entities practices, but the bigger picture.

In practice, if the information is made voluntary, I still don&#039;t see that impacting the function of the service much on the side of users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the distinction I see:</p>
<p>Roommate: &#8220;because it requires users to provide information about gender, sexual orientation and whether they have children, and then uses the information to screen people for matches.&#8221;</p>
<p>Roommate was doing the screening and matching.</p>
<p>With the voluntary information, the users would be doing the searching and screening.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that Roommate in practice was being discriminatory. But that I understand how the court reached its decision.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t expect this to actually go to trial unless there was plausible cause that discrimination was occuring.</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t think the court was looking at this as just a single entities practices, but the bigger picture.</p>
<p>In practice, if the information is made voluntary, I still don&#8217;t see that impacting the function of the service much on the side of users.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8916</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 00:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8916</guid>
		<description>Stefano,

That justs makes my point.

Roommate wasn&#039;t refusing to do business with anyone because of race, sex, etc. It was simply providing a particular service: matching people with a roommate of the type they want.

The Court&#039;s ruling ignores this distinction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefano,</p>
<p>That justs makes my point.</p>
<p>Roommate wasn&#8217;t refusing to do business with anyone because of race, sex, etc. It was simply providing a particular service: matching people with a roommate of the type they want.</p>
<p>The Court&#8217;s ruling ignores this distinction.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefano</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8903</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 06:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8903</guid>
		<description>David:

The court ruling has no effect on volunteered information. The renter or the person looking for a roommate can still state their preferences. Roommate can just no longer be required to provide the information in order to do business with Roommate.

All Roommate has to do is make the information optional and still provide the user search options for that or any other &quot;personal attribute&quot; that&#039;s voluntarily provided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David:</p>
<p>The court ruling has no effect on volunteered information. The renter or the person looking for a roommate can still state their preferences. Roommate can just no longer be required to provide the information in order to do business with Roommate.</p>
<p>All Roommate has to do is make the information optional and still provide the user search options for that or any other &#8220;personal attribute&#8221; that&#8217;s voluntarily provided.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8901</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 05:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8901</guid>
		<description>Stefano,

The Court clearly ignored the reason for asking these questions in the first place: the preferences of the renter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefano,</p>
<p>The Court clearly ignored the reason for asking these questions in the first place: the preferences of the renter.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760/comment-page-1#comment-8895</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 02:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/04/1760#comment-8895</guid>
		<description>What they should really ask is:
Are you a homophobe?
Are you racist?
Associate with the KKK?
DO you discriminate against any religion?

I wonder.. if asking if their gay, unconstitutional or disciminatory, then asking the questions above, the same?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What they should really ask is:<br />
Are you a homophobe?<br />
Are you racist?<br />
Associate with the KKK?<br />
DO you discriminate against any religion?</p>
<p>I wonder.. if asking if their gay, unconstitutional or disciminatory, then asking the questions above, the same?</p>
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