You are right grantdale, you will not convince me. I have a defined set of values, morals and beliefs that represent what christianity is. The only ones that do not share these same values, morals and beliefs are the pro-gays. You can ‘convince’ me and prove everything i said was wrong… but the ONLY way i might sway your way is for me to read the bible for myself and say, ‘ah, you were right’. Why? Because i’ve heard of so many priests/pastors and such that defend their point of view(that resembles the one you guys simply dismissed as false, mistaken, and full of bigotry) after studying decades and a lifetime of the bible. Oddly enough… i DO NOT CARE what the bible says nor God. For me, the first is a book to control human actions with ‘internal restraint’ and the later a pure imaginary friend. And even then, would i end up defending the priests/pastors(and Elane photography) or timothy kincaid?

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“I want you to take your god-damned and god-damning religion out of my life. That’s freedom FROM religion.
”

I completely empathize with you.

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”
And that is the crux of this issue. Elane has her freedom of religion. She is just not allowed to let it be public policy.
”

And this is where it gets more interesting/important, i think.
THis example of Elane photography, if say, one could take it 50-100years back and apply it to blacks back then and instead of freedom of religion, one would use freedom of association. Then, it would not be so far fetched to find ourselves defending the freedom of association of the white-who-find-blacks-disgusting while we are black, no? Anyways, imo, these judges are practicing from experience. For example, for blacks, Freedom of Association < Discrimination, correct me if im wrong. Im new to this :P. Equally, Freedom of religion/Association < Discrimination to being gay, independant of where it might happen. Otherwise, society will always be able to discriminate IF they play their cards right. And the point of anti-discrimination laws is to punish with more fervent impunity, through force and power, the wrong doings of society to damage/demean/reject others under no concrete basis. It may not eliminate or really change anything, but at least it attempts to do so. Hopefully society will understand that being gay does not make you more disgusting/evil simply for being(and living -to separate from ex-gays-) gay.

I would say that i agree with their ruling, but its further implications are pretty blurry.

Joel wrote: ‘Rather, he condemned the action of man-man, woman-woman and it is not far fetched to believe that a marriage is paralel, yet different, to the action he condemned.’

This idea is called complementarity/ Here’s a link on the subject, which underlines what I said. http://www.gaychristian101.com/BiblicalComplementarity.html .

It’s another way of saying: YOU’RE MAKING IT ALL UP!

The marriage aspect is intended to be for a man and a woman

And marriages were intended to be arranged by fathers

And women were intended to be the property of men

And they were intended to not speak in church and if they had any questions ask their husbands

And Christians were intended not to be married at all – as long as they could not burn with lust

And slaves were intended to be obedient to their masters

And circumcision was intended to be the most important sign of a covenant with God. And then it was intended to not matter at all.

And people were intended to take the Bible absolutely literally… except that of course no one really does – they just claim to when they want to attack others.

You see, Joel, if you actually read the Bible you’ll come to see that it is a chronical of men seeking God, not a holy object that we worship above God. Don’t make the Bible an idol. Let it lead you to God, but don’t look to it as a magic eight ball.

Thank you for so very embodying the essense of misunderstood Christianity.

Everything you said is in direct opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ. He ALWAYS treated the outsider, the sinner, the social outcast with dignity and never worried whether anyone thought he was condoning sin. And he commanded us to do the same.

And religious society did accuse him of condoning sin. That’s why the good church folk killed him. Remember? Have you read the gospels?

As with all bible worshippers, you stake out your position, find the passages that you believe support it, and ignore passages that don’t, especially those passages of equal or greater moral weight than the ones you cite. It is what tells me that this is not, nor has it ever really been, about what the bible may or may not say about homosexuality. There is one set of rules for gay people, and a totally different set of rules for everyone else. Same as in the military, adoption,civil rights laws, marriage, indeed, anything where the subject of gay people comes up and why they should be treated differently for no other reason than that they’re gay, and you or your image of G agree.

I’ve challenged you several times since you started posting on this issue, and you’ve never responded to it. I should not expect you to do so now. but here goes.

You wrote: ‘The part where “if circumstances were different” is pivotal and needs to be INFERRED from it, otherwise they would have to condone, for example, robberies, murders, because if they thought like a murderer or a thief then they might have to condone such action.’

Why is it that if this is G’s desire and commandment, it always needs to be inferred? Why is G so consistently unclear on this subject, despite the clarity that so many bible-worshippers insist is there. “Sleep the sleep of a woman” does not equal gay unless you already have decided it does.

Robbery and murder are wrong. I don’t need you book or belief to tell me it’s wrong. I also resent the comparison to violent crime, and the implication that I do not know this. If you cannot understand the difference, then you are in no position to judge anyone’s morals. You have neither the moral nor spiritual authority to judge my actions. You are enjoined from doing so by your savior far more clearly than anything in your book enjoins me.

That is why JC said judge not, look not, let he who, do as you would be done by. As I have asked you repeatedly, what portion of those statements does not apply to you? And why do you think they don’t? It is not for you to judge or condone.

you not only misunderstand the moral and religious issues here, you misunderstand mine as well. I am not interested in condoning, tolerance, acceptance, approval, whatever. These are irrelevant to me, because they are your problem, not mine.

My problem is that people like you believe I should be treated differently than you, that you are indeed superior to me in all ways, because you don’t like whatever you imagine my sex life to be, or that G doesn’t. Heterosexuality is neither virtuous, normal, nor superior. It is just stultifyingly common.

you also wrote: ‘The marriage aspect is intended to be for a man and a woman, at no point did he(the bible translator and/or God) ever came close to remotely suggesting that man-man, woman-woman could marry.’

And at no point did he not. as far as I can tell, honey, you are making this all up. Your opening statement does not follow from your closing statement; you’ve just assumed it to be true. If it is a bible translator, then this is not the word of G, it’s the work of Joe scribe– maybe. You might be surprised to learn the the king James version of the bible was based upon translations (I think in German) made in the 1200′s, based upon documents that were not much older than that– as far back as they could be traced. So if that is your authority, then you are just “speaking ex cathedra from your belly button”.

If you want your bible to have authority over you, you’re welcome to it, though as i have already noted, you ignore it wherever you DON”T want it to have any authority. That’s called freedom of religion.

I want you to take your god-damned and god-damning religion out of my life. That’s freedom FROM religion.

And that is the crux of this issue. Elane has her freedom of religion. She is just not allowed to let it be public policy.

Not if its to a same sexed person, no amount of choosing would make it right.
WHY? (im sure ur all familiar, but for those that arent…) The marriage aspect is intended to be for a man and a woman, at no point did he(the bible translator and/or God) ever came close to remotely suggesting that man-man, woman-woman could marry. Rather, he condemned the action of man-man, woman-woman and it is not far fetched to believe that a marriage is paralel, yet different, to the action he condemned. This might be a predominantly unsubstantiated claim, but it is a the predominant christian belief however.

Feh, whatever. Make up your own rules for everyone else as you go along…that’s all I hear. You guys can’t seem to follow your own crap (I mean, really, you guys bear false witness against us all the time, and that little law made the top ten) so give me a really good reason why I have to follow your stupid made up laws?

I mean, really, is God going to send you to hell just cuz you allowed same-sex marriage to happen? It’s not like you’re the one marrying another dude. You’ve got plenty of other issues of your own to deal with so why focus on us…

Oh, no, wait, I see…it’s not really about us, is it? What it’s about is your salvation. Honestly, if it’s not, then you really shouldn’t give two squats about us or what we do. This is your goalpost: Keep the queers from marrying and spare yourself from God’s wrath.

When it’s all said and done, that’s what this is all about isn’t it? Well, guess what…I hope you don’t make it.

That’s your hell…you don’t make it cuz some joker made up some crap rules that you can’t follow due to something innate. You can pray all you want, gather all the followers you want, be as good of a person as you can be…sin the absolute minimum, but you can’t get there cuz of some stupid, ridiculous, nonsensical reasons that some jackass just made up cuz he doesn’t like who you are and insist that “Well, God sad it’s this way so, do te do, that’s the way it is. Sucks to be you!”

Does that sound cruel? Oh, that’s too bad. Now maybe you’ll start to understand this hell you and your ilk put us through.