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	<title>Comments on: Wrap-Up: Anthropology and the Same-Sex Marraige Debate</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Recycling a la Blankenhorn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-19307</link>
		<dc:creator>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Recycling a la Blankenhorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-19307</guid>
		<description>[...] of marriage present a much more varied and complex picture than Blankenhorn admits. (Here&#8217;s Jim Burroway&#8217;s wrap-up on that.) First off, people certainly don&#8217;t need a license to have children. That in itself is a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of marriage present a much more varied and complex picture than Blankenhorn admits. (Here&#8217;s Jim Burroway&#8217;s wrap-up on that.) First off, people certainly don&#8217;t need a license to have children. That in itself is a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ephilei</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9939</link>
		<dc:creator>Ephilei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9939</guid>
		<description>@Kei

In my experience, the trans community has already separated transgender from transexual. Historically, I&#039;m not sure the two were ever the same except from the misunderstanding of non-trans people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kei</p>
<p>In my experience, the trans community has already separated transgender from transexual. Historically, I&#8217;m not sure the two were ever the same except from the misunderstanding of non-trans people.</p>
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		<title>By: grantdale</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9239</link>
		<dc:creator>grantdale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9239</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re glad for the exchanges too.

If there&#039;s at least one thing good about English -- it&#039;s got no hesitation adapting, adopting, inventing or just plain thieving words from anywhere to better say what is meant.

&quot;profil aérodynamique&quot; still cracks me up.

(Thanks Bill -- quite a statement in 1959, no doubt! Could have been worse...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re glad for the exchanges too.</p>
<p>If there&#8217;s at least one thing good about English &#8212; it&#8217;s got no hesitation adapting, adopting, inventing or just plain thieving words from anywhere to better say what is meant.</p>
<p>&#8220;profil aérodynamique&#8221; still cracks me up.</p>
<p>(Thanks Bill &#8212; quite a statement in 1959, no doubt! Could have been worse&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ware</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9231</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ware</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9231</guid>
		<description>While I was in HS, circa 1959, I was assigned the task of picking up a young German woman in her 20&#039;s, I can&#039;t remember from where, and bringing her back to our house.

I decided to use the opportunity to practice my HS German on the drive home. It was a hot summer day, and even with the A/C going it was warm in the car. So at one point I glanced over at her and casually asked, &quot;Sind Sie heiss?&quot; which literally means &quot;Are you hot?&quot;

Well, from the look on her face, I could tell I&#039;d said something wrong. When it became clear I wasn&#039;t coming on to her, she explained that &quot;Sind Sie heiss?&quot; means &quot;Are you sexually aroused?&quot; Gasp!

If I were asking about her comfort, I should have asked, &quot;Ist es Ihnen heiss?&quot; or &quot;Is it hot to you?&quot; Makes sense.

There&#039;s more to language than simple translation, that&#039;s for sure. I don&#039;t practice German much anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I was in HS, circa 1959, I was assigned the task of picking up a young German woman in her 20&#8242;s, I can&#8217;t remember from where, and bringing her back to our house.</p>
<p>I decided to use the opportunity to practice my HS German on the drive home. It was a hot summer day, and even with the A/C going it was warm in the car. So at one point I glanced over at her and casually asked, &#8220;Sind Sie heiss?&#8221; which literally means &#8220;Are you hot?&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, from the look on her face, I could tell I&#8217;d said something wrong. When it became clear I wasn&#8217;t coming on to her, she explained that &#8220;Sind Sie heiss?&#8221; means &#8220;Are you sexually aroused?&#8221; Gasp!</p>
<p>If I were asking about her comfort, I should have asked, &#8220;Ist es Ihnen heiss?&#8221; or &#8220;Is it hot to you?&#8221; Makes sense.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s more to language than simple translation, that&#8217;s for sure. I don&#8217;t practice German much anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: Willie Hewes</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9224</link>
		<dc:creator>Willie Hewes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9224</guid>
		<description>All together a very interesting exchange, thanks to all involved.

&quot;Because this is new, it therefore shouldn’t exist.&quot;

That&#039;s what the argument about &quot;traditional marriage&quot; boils down to, and it isn&#039;t only silly on the face of it (didn&#039;t they say that about railway travel?) we&#039;ve seen it&#039;s not even true: it isn&#039;t new. 

Are there any arguments left?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All together a very interesting exchange, thanks to all involved.</p>
<p>&#8220;Because this is new, it therefore shouldn’t exist.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what the argument about &#8220;traditional marriage&#8221; boils down to, and it isn&#8217;t only silly on the face of it (didn&#8217;t they say that about railway travel?) we&#8217;ve seen it&#8217;s not even true: it isn&#8217;t new. </p>
<p>Are there any arguments left?</p>
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		<title>By: Kei</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9223</link>
		<dc:creator>Kei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9223</guid>
		<description>Now a days you have to be careful with the term transgender regradless if it&#039;s a verb or noun, since there is a lot of argument from both within and without the &quot;gender community&quot; (there is a fictional group if ever there was one) on what transgender even means.  From my personal observations there is quite a large push to seperate transgender and transsexual.  Where Trasngender has become the catch all term for any person who may be gender divergent and transsexual are those who are trying to complete switch their gender identity to the oppisate one of their birth.

Of course like so much of this these are games of semantics and language, but when part of the &quot;issue&quot; is language, it is important to acknowledge these differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now a days you have to be careful with the term transgender regradless if it&#8217;s a verb or noun, since there is a lot of argument from both within and without the &#8220;gender community&#8221; (there is a fictional group if ever there was one) on what transgender even means.  From my personal observations there is quite a large push to seperate transgender and transsexual.  Where Trasngender has become the catch all term for any person who may be gender divergent and transsexual are those who are trying to complete switch their gender identity to the oppisate one of their birth.</p>
<p>Of course like so much of this these are games of semantics and language, but when part of the &#8220;issue&#8221; is language, it is important to acknowledge these differences.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Patrick Chapman</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9222</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Patrick Chapman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9222</guid>
		<description>After I had submitted my second post in this series I regretted not using different terms. I wish I would have brought into the discussion the distinction between heterogendered and homogendered marriages because I think that would have eliminated some of the &quot;talking past each other&quot;. Glenn Stanton acknowledged that homosexual (two people of the same biological sex) marriages were not new (even though James Dobson and Focus on the Family consistently says otherwise). I think Glenn was arguing that homogendered (two people of the same gender category) marriages were new. My argument was that heterosexual marriages are now basically homogendered, so once again modern homosexual marriages are based on the heterosexual model: the heterosexual model now being homogendered. So, I didn&#039;t find this to be a valid argument.

I think Stanton&#039;s final argument was that what we don&#039;t see in anthropology is homosexual homogendered marriages. And in this sense I think he is correct. However, one has to ask if that is a relevant argument when we have examples of homosexual marriages and of homogendered marriages. I think Stanton&#039;s argument is that marriages have to have at least one &quot;hetero-&quot; component to them. But why that is an inherent necessity is a fair question to ask. I cannot help but think he is grasping at any straw to argue that &quot;because this is new, it therefore shouldn&#039;t exist&quot;.

There is no evidence that homosexual marriages are harmful to society or children (&quot;won&#039;t someone please think of the children!&quot; being the battle cry of Rev Lovejoy&#039;s wife on the Simpsons). There is no evidence that homogendered marriages are harmful to society or children. All Focus on the Family is able to do to argue otherwise is ascribe to a double standard, as Glenn Stanton himself did. He was critical of my mention of Lamotrek same-sex marriages not causing harm to children (my mention is based on societal acceptance throughout the generations with no recorded evidence of harm), but then he used research that did not include adopted children in heterosexual families or children of same-sex parents to argue that children need parents of both sexes. It is very clear to me that same-sex parenting does not hurt children - well-known and legitimate studies on the subject do exist and given that Stanton does not reference them simply highlight that they do not support his argument: if they did one can be assured Focus on the Family would be mentioning them every chance they had. However, I noticed that Glenn did not address my comment that Focus on the Family&#039;s efforts to deny same-sex couples the same rights and privileges opposite-sex couples get actually harms children because the couples do not get the important health benefits, etc. To me this signifies that Focus on the Family really doesn&#039;t care about the children, or that they are willing to sacrifice some children in order to gain their political agenda.

I appreciated this discussion with Glenn and find him pleasant to interact with. However, I challenge him and the Focus on the Family organization to not base their arguments on double standards and outright lies. For the record, Focus on the Family has yet to issue a retraction and correction to its readers over its blatant lie suggesting that anthropologists support traditional marriage. They are supposed to be a Christian organization, right? Ultimately, I cannot help but think Focus on the Family is using children to achieve their political agenda; an agenda that is totally divorced from the teachings of Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After I had submitted my second post in this series I regretted not using different terms. I wish I would have brought into the discussion the distinction between heterogendered and homogendered marriages because I think that would have eliminated some of the &#8220;talking past each other&#8221;. Glenn Stanton acknowledged that homosexual (two people of the same biological sex) marriages were not new (even though James Dobson and Focus on the Family consistently says otherwise). I think Glenn was arguing that homogendered (two people of the same gender category) marriages were new. My argument was that heterosexual marriages are now basically homogendered, so once again modern homosexual marriages are based on the heterosexual model: the heterosexual model now being homogendered. So, I didn&#8217;t find this to be a valid argument.</p>
<p>I think Stanton&#8217;s final argument was that what we don&#8217;t see in anthropology is homosexual homogendered marriages. And in this sense I think he is correct. However, one has to ask if that is a relevant argument when we have examples of homosexual marriages and of homogendered marriages. I think Stanton&#8217;s argument is that marriages have to have at least one &#8220;hetero-&#8221; component to them. But why that is an inherent necessity is a fair question to ask. I cannot help but think he is grasping at any straw to argue that &#8220;because this is new, it therefore shouldn&#8217;t exist&#8221;.</p>
<p>There is no evidence that homosexual marriages are harmful to society or children (&#8220;won&#8217;t someone please think of the children!&#8221; being the battle cry of Rev Lovejoy&#8217;s wife on the Simpsons). There is no evidence that homogendered marriages are harmful to society or children. All Focus on the Family is able to do to argue otherwise is ascribe to a double standard, as Glenn Stanton himself did. He was critical of my mention of Lamotrek same-sex marriages not causing harm to children (my mention is based on societal acceptance throughout the generations with no recorded evidence of harm), but then he used research that did not include adopted children in heterosexual families or children of same-sex parents to argue that children need parents of both sexes. It is very clear to me that same-sex parenting does not hurt children &#8211; well-known and legitimate studies on the subject do exist and given that Stanton does not reference them simply highlight that they do not support his argument: if they did one can be assured Focus on the Family would be mentioning them every chance they had. However, I noticed that Glenn did not address my comment that Focus on the Family&#8217;s efforts to deny same-sex couples the same rights and privileges opposite-sex couples get actually harms children because the couples do not get the important health benefits, etc. To me this signifies that Focus on the Family really doesn&#8217;t care about the children, or that they are willing to sacrifice some children in order to gain their political agenda.</p>
<p>I appreciated this discussion with Glenn and find him pleasant to interact with. However, I challenge him and the Focus on the Family organization to not base their arguments on double standards and outright lies. For the record, Focus on the Family has yet to issue a retraction and correction to its readers over its blatant lie suggesting that anthropologists support traditional marriage. They are supposed to be a Christian organization, right? Ultimately, I cannot help but think Focus on the Family is using children to achieve their political agenda; an agenda that is totally divorced from the teachings of Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9221</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9221</guid>
		<description>Good point. I made the appropriate update with regard to transgender people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point. I made the appropriate update with regard to transgender people.</p>
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		<title>By: Ada</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799/comment-page-1#comment-9220</link>
		<dc:creator>Ada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/04/14/1799#comment-9220</guid>
		<description>Overall a pretty good explanation of the difference between sex and gender, but I&#039;d like to point out a couple of minor things:

1.  Please don&#039;t say &quot;transgenders&quot;; say &quot;transgender PEOPLE&quot;.  It&#039;s an adjective, not a noun.

2. You don&#039;t explicitly go into this either way, but to clarify for some readers (even within the LGB community there&#039;s a fair amount of misunderstanding of trans people), unlike Indonesia&#039;s bissu, calabai, and calalai, most American transgender people don&#039;t identify as a &quot;third gender&quot;.  Many actually identify within the binary, just not on the side of their biological sex.  Others identify outside the binary, often feeling that they combine aspects of both genders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Overall a pretty good explanation of the difference between sex and gender, but I&#8217;d like to point out a couple of minor things:</p>
<p>1.  Please don&#8217;t say &#8220;transgenders&#8221;; say &#8220;transgender PEOPLE&#8221;.  It&#8217;s an adjective, not a noun.</p>
<p>2. You don&#8217;t explicitly go into this either way, but to clarify for some readers (even within the LGB community there&#8217;s a fair amount of misunderstanding of trans people), unlike Indonesia&#8217;s bissu, calabai, and calalai, most American transgender people don&#8217;t identify as a &#8220;third gender&#8221;.  Many actually identify within the binary, just not on the side of their biological sex.  Others identify outside the binary, often feeling that they combine aspects of both genders.</p>
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