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	<title>Comments on: Prop 8 Description Upheld in Court</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Chino Blanco</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15860</link>
		<dc:creator>Chino Blanco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15860</guid>
		<description>According to Frank Schubert, &#039;Yes on 8&#039; campaign manager, the mobilization of LDS (Mormon) volunteers could save his campaign up to $26 million in costs related to micro-targeting persuadable voters.

Micro-Targeting Mormons:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/24/61932/7927/663/573944

So much for campaign finance rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Frank Schubert, &#8216;Yes on 8&#8242; campaign manager, the mobilization of LDS (Mormon) volunteers could save his campaign up to $26 million in costs related to micro-targeting persuadable voters.</p>
<p>Micro-Targeting Mormons:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/24/61932/7927/663/573944" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/24/61932/7927/663/573944</a></p>
<p>So much for campaign finance rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Various links that I&#8217;ll just throw around &#171; Stuff</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15797</link>
		<dc:creator>Various links that I&#8217;ll just throw around &#171; Stuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15797</guid>
		<description>[...] while we&#8217;re on that issue, I really liked this (again Alas, a blog): A California Court has ruled that proposition 8 — which, if passed, will change the California constitution to eliminate the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] while we&#8217;re on that issue, I really liked this (again Alas, a blog): A California Court has ruled that proposition 8 — which, if passed, will change the California constitution to eliminate the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Court Issues Ruling On Transitive Verbs In Gay Marriage Case</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15376</link>
		<dc:creator>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Court Issues Ruling On Transitive Verbs In Gay Marriage Case</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15376</guid>
		<description>[...] California Court has ruled that proposition 8 &#8212; which, if passed, will change the California constitution to eliminate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] California Court has ruled that proposition 8 &#8212; which, if passed, will change the California constitution to eliminate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15346</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15346</guid>
		<description>Churches are free to involve themselves in propositions without threatening their tax status.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Churches are free to involve themselves in propositions without threatening their tax status.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15344</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15344</guid>
		<description>If the effort is as organized as it might seem from the above comments, and enough documentation can be generated to demonstrate arm twisting and coercion using Church resources (down to tithing tallies), it could seriously endanger the Mormon Church non-profit status.  We can only hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the effort is as organized as it might seem from the above comments, and enough documentation can be generated to demonstrate arm twisting and coercion using Church resources (down to tithing tallies), it could seriously endanger the Mormon Church non-profit status.  We can only hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Tavdy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15332</link>
		<dc:creator>Tavdy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15332</guid>
		<description>Worse? It sounds to me like grass-roots Mormons have serious doubts about what their church is doing in covertly supporting the Proposition 8 campaign, even if they themselves don&#039;t see gay marriage as healthy and right.

That&#039;s a good thing, isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Worse? It sounds to me like grass-roots Mormons have serious doubts about what their church is doing in covertly supporting the Proposition 8 campaign, even if they themselves don&#8217;t see gay marriage as healthy and right.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a good thing, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15323</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 16:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15323</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s worse than you think.  Check out this quote from another Mormon blog:

&quot;I personally don&#039;t have a problem with same-sex marriage (although I do believe that it is immoral), and I don&#039;t understand why the Church is so adamant in asking members to support the proposition. It seems to me that they are trying to legislate a moral issue; why not try to outlaw adultery?

However, I’ve been blessed in the past for obeying my priesthood leaders. They know things that I don&#039;t. This issue must be important for some reason that I don&#039;t understand. Since I don&#039;t live in California, the directive to &quot;do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman&quot; doesn&#039;t apply to me, I guess. But I&#039;d like to think that if I did live in California, or if a similar situation were to take place here in Nevada, I&#039;d have the faith to sustain the Prophet and First Presidency and make good on the covenants I&#039;ve made to consecrate all I have to the Church.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worse than you think.  Check out this quote from another Mormon blog:</p>
<p>&#8220;I personally don&#8217;t have a problem with same-sex marriage (although I do believe that it is immoral), and I don&#8217;t understand why the Church is so adamant in asking members to support the proposition. It seems to me that they are trying to legislate a moral issue; why not try to outlaw adultery?</p>
<p>However, I’ve been blessed in the past for obeying my priesthood leaders. They know things that I don&#8217;t. This issue must be important for some reason that I don&#8217;t understand. Since I don&#8217;t live in California, the directive to &#8220;do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman&#8221; doesn&#8217;t apply to me, I guess. But I&#8217;d like to think that if I did live in California, or if a similar situation were to take place here in Nevada, I&#8217;d have the faith to sustain the Prophet and First Presidency and make good on the covenants I&#8217;ve made to consecrate all I have to the Church.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15312</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15312</guid>
		<description>So this blog was posted from an LDS (Mormon) couple called nine moons in California. Anyone find this VERY disturbing, but me?

    “We wholeheartedly agreed with the prop and already indicated we’d be happy to throw some money at it to help out. What we were dreading, though, was to be asked to make “get out the vote” calls or put up a sign on our lawn (the worst part about being asked by the Church to do something is you really can’t say no– and if you do, you just don’t get it). One of my wife’s best friends is a gay man (with a monogamous partner) with whom she already shared her feelings on same-sex marriage. Surprisingly he agreed, and even called the whole issue “ridiculous.”

    As it turned out, when the SP sat down with us, it was actually about making a contribution– a rather sizable contribution. He already had a figure in mind. Interestingly, the Mrs. and I both heard the figure in our heads before he said it. I asked if all the members were being asked for the same figure, and he admitted they weren’t. We told him we’d talk about it and would let him know if we’d send it or an alternative amount. He agreed and left a donation form for ProtectMarriage.com which asks you to submit, among other things, your name, and the name of your ward and stake.

    Different thoughts ran through our minds after the visit. My wife wanted to know how they came up with the customized figure and stewed over the notion that they probably reviewed our tithing records. The alternative would have been to pray over each family name, which seemed a painful, time-intensive exercise considering we were talking about the whole stake. Meanwhile, I didn’t like the idea of tallies being made for each ward. The SP said they’d be getting back lists of the donors and how much they paid. I didn’t like the idea of my faithfulness being gauged so. I also didn’t like contributing to a coalition of churches, many of which I suspect are Huckabee fan clubs. Plus, let’s face it, it was a huge chunk o’ change they were asking from us.”

They made the donation…and within minutes they got the dream home they had been praying for. They believe it is for their obedience to the Lord…?

I wanted to vomit after reading this. There were so many things wrong with this entire episode that I could not begin to fathom how far from Christianity this fellowship has strayed…from political fund raising, to church reporting on donor contributions, to the belief that this sizeable contribution was answered by God with the arrangement of financing for a new dream house. I have had it. This is just plain wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So this blog was posted from an LDS (Mormon) couple called nine moons in California. Anyone find this VERY disturbing, but me?</p>
<p>    “We wholeheartedly agreed with the prop and already indicated we’d be happy to throw some money at it to help out. What we were dreading, though, was to be asked to make “get out the vote” calls or put up a sign on our lawn (the worst part about being asked by the Church to do something is you really can’t say no– and if you do, you just don’t get it). One of my wife’s best friends is a gay man (with a monogamous partner) with whom she already shared her feelings on same-sex marriage. Surprisingly he agreed, and even called the whole issue “ridiculous.”</p>
<p>    As it turned out, when the SP sat down with us, it was actually about making a contribution– a rather sizable contribution. He already had a figure in mind. Interestingly, the Mrs. and I both heard the figure in our heads before he said it. I asked if all the members were being asked for the same figure, and he admitted they weren’t. We told him we’d talk about it and would let him know if we’d send it or an alternative amount. He agreed and left a donation form for ProtectMarriage.com which asks you to submit, among other things, your name, and the name of your ward and stake.</p>
<p>    Different thoughts ran through our minds after the visit. My wife wanted to know how they came up with the customized figure and stewed over the notion that they probably reviewed our tithing records. The alternative would have been to pray over each family name, which seemed a painful, time-intensive exercise considering we were talking about the whole stake. Meanwhile, I didn’t like the idea of tallies being made for each ward. The SP said they’d be getting back lists of the donors and how much they paid. I didn’t like the idea of my faithfulness being gauged so. I also didn’t like contributing to a coalition of churches, many of which I suspect are Huckabee fan clubs. Plus, let’s face it, it was a huge chunk o’ change they were asking from us.”</p>
<p>They made the donation…and within minutes they got the dream home they had been praying for. They believe it is for their obedience to the Lord…?</p>
<p>I wanted to vomit after reading this. There were so many things wrong with this entire episode that I could not begin to fathom how far from Christianity this fellowship has strayed…from political fund raising, to church reporting on donor contributions, to the belief that this sizeable contribution was answered by God with the arrangement of financing for a new dream house. I have had it. This is just plain wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: AJD</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15280</link>
		<dc:creator>AJD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15280</guid>
		<description>I hate to say this, but I have a little bit more respect for the Phelps cult than I do for these people. Not that I&#039;m excusing the Phelps&#039; bigotry, but at least they come right out and &quot;say what they mean and mean what they say.&quot;

Nobody would support Prop 8 if its proponents were saying &quot;We need to restrict marriage to a man and a woman because God hates fags!&quot; So, they have to cloak it in sweet-sounding &quot;protect the children&quot; BS, and it&#039;s not surprising that they would sue over an honest description of their amendment.

These Proposition 8 people are far more dangerous because they&#039;re more able to lead people to think they really mean well and thus persuade them to support these amendments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate to say this, but I have a little bit more respect for the Phelps cult than I do for these people. Not that I&#8217;m excusing the Phelps&#8217; bigotry, but at least they come right out and &#8220;say what they mean and mean what they say.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nobody would support Prop 8 if its proponents were saying &#8220;We need to restrict marriage to a man and a woman because God hates fags!&#8221; So, they have to cloak it in sweet-sounding &#8220;protect the children&#8221; BS, and it&#8217;s not surprising that they would sue over an honest description of their amendment.</p>
<p>These Proposition 8 people are far more dangerous because they&#8217;re more able to lead people to think they really mean well and thus persuade them to support these amendments.</p>
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		<title>By: Emproph</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/08/08/2544/comment-page-1#comment-15277</link>
		<dc:creator>Emproph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2544#comment-15277</guid>
		<description>Oh, that&#039;s all you militant homosexual activists ever have to say...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, that&#8217;s all you militant homosexual activists ever have to say&#8230;</p>
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