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	<title>Comments on: Mormons and California&#8217;s Prop 8</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18636</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18636</guid>
		<description>Stefano is right on the money. 

I don’t think the Prophet T. S. Monson would be too proud of the way the anti-gay marriage people are presenting their case.  Their justifications are weak, lame and deceitful.  I’m not sure, but I think President Monson should offer another letter to be read  from the pulpits…at least to chide some of the Saints.  That would be honorable thing to do.  (I doubt you will see one, though.)

This, I repeat, is a black-eye on the LDS Faith no matter the outcome this November.  

**footnote:  I’m back in civilization for a bit.  No internet access nor even cell phone! (gasp!)  But I love these Canadians I’m with.  They have better issues to deal with in their election coming soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefano is right on the money. </p>
<p>I don’t think the Prophet T. S. Monson would be too proud of the way the anti-gay marriage people are presenting their case.  Their justifications are weak, lame and deceitful.  I’m not sure, but I think President Monson should offer another letter to be read  from the pulpits…at least to chide some of the Saints.  That would be honorable thing to do.  (I doubt you will see one, though.)</p>
<p>This, I repeat, is a black-eye on the LDS Faith no matter the outcome this November.  </p>
<p>**footnote:  I’m back in civilization for a bit.  No internet access nor even cell phone! (gasp!)  But I love these Canadians I’m with.  They have better issues to deal with in their election coming soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefano A</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18624</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefano A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18624</guid>
		<description>BTW: 

Also please drop this smoke screen of &quot;protect the children&quot;. These anti-gay movements from banning foster care to adoptions, to depriving the children of gay couples of the services and benefits heterosexual couples are eligible for does nothing to PROTECT children. The only thing it does do is provide you with a smug sense of self-satisfaction and rationalize reserving your own sense of personal entitlements in order to deprive other similarly situated individuals who do not happen to share the same faith-based doctrine even within various denominational sects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW: </p>
<p>Also please drop this smoke screen of &#8220;protect the children&#8221;. These anti-gay movements from banning foster care to adoptions, to depriving the children of gay couples of the services and benefits heterosexual couples are eligible for does nothing to PROTECT children. The only thing it does do is provide you with a smug sense of self-satisfaction and rationalize reserving your own sense of personal entitlements in order to deprive other similarly situated individuals who do not happen to share the same faith-based doctrine even within various denominational sects.</p>
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		<title>By: Stefano A</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18623</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefano A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18623</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If Prop 8 doesn’t pass we know that our religious freedom is at stake. For instance in Massachusetts, the Catholic church had an adoption agency and were sued because they would not allow same-sex couple to adopt. The couple won. What happened to religious rights and freedome?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Wrong!

They were sued because they receive federal money and by law if they do so they may not impose religious beliefs upon those seeking services provided.

If they wish to give up their federal funding, they&#039;re more than welcome to only cater to those who share the same religious belief.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Another example: in Massachusetts an OBGYN was sued and he lost because he would not do artifical insemination on a gay couple because “of his religious views.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Wrong again. The case was in California. Again they last because they cannot pick and chose to whom they&#039;ll provide the service. In this case they were providing the exact same service to some but not to others. In this instance it must be all or nothing.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Another example: In Massachusetts the children starting from the age of Kindergarten are being taught about same-sex attraction, same-sex couples, bisexuality etc. in the public schools regardless of parental view.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Wrong yet again! For sex education parents have to sign approval or sign an opt out form. And sex education is not taught children of that age. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;What happened to parents right to teach their children about sexuality?&lt;/blockquote&gt;Nothing. You&#039;re perfectly free to teach your children whatever limited information you wish to provide. Being well-educated about sexual relationships and consequences does not require the imposition of biblical religious viewpoints by the schools.

&lt;blockquote&gt;What happened to religious freedome and rights?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Again, nothing. You are perfectly free to guide &lt;i&gt;your own life&lt;/i&gt; by your own religious values. You are prefectly free to practice that relgion. And you have perfectly free to either home-school your child or enroll them in a religious parochial school of your choice. (Which, I might add, in some states for which you can acquire a government subsidized school voucher which is funded by &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; tax-payers.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;This will truly devistate our state as it has Massachusetts.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Facts only please. And keep in mind that Massachusetts has one of the lowest heterosexual divorce rates in the country. It&#039;s the highly conservative states with the higher divorce rates.

&lt;blockquote&gt;To all my friends and family who have embraced the same-sex lifestyle, you know how much I love you and understand the need to protect children, our religious freedoms and rights.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Please spare us the guise of fauxe embraces when you aren&#039;t even educated enough about these topics to know the facts, or that sexual orientation is NOT a life style. There are as many diverse life styles among gays and lesbians as there are among heterosexuals. So when you speak of the &quot;gay life style&quot; which life style exactly do you mean? That of the singles, those who are coupled and living the exact same life-style as a heterosexual couple excepting the sex of their partner? What you and your husband do in bed is NOT a life style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If Prop 8 doesn’t pass we know that our religious freedom is at stake. For instance in Massachusetts, the Catholic church had an adoption agency and were sued because they would not allow same-sex couple to adopt. The couple won. What happened to religious rights and freedome?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Wrong!</p>
<p>They were sued because they receive federal money and by law if they do so they may not impose religious beliefs upon those seeking services provided.</p>
<p>If they wish to give up their federal funding, they&#8217;re more than welcome to only cater to those who share the same religious belief.</p>
<blockquote><p>Another example: in Massachusetts an OBGYN was sued and he lost because he would not do artifical insemination on a gay couple because “of his religious views.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Wrong again. The case was in California. Again they last because they cannot pick and chose to whom they&#8217;ll provide the service. In this case they were providing the exact same service to some but not to others. In this instance it must be all or nothing.</p>
<blockquote><p>Another example: In Massachusetts the children starting from the age of Kindergarten are being taught about same-sex attraction, same-sex couples, bisexuality etc. in the public schools regardless of parental view.</p></blockquote>
<p>Wrong yet again! For sex education parents have to sign approval or sign an opt out form. And sex education is not taught children of that age. </p>
<blockquote><p>What happened to parents right to teach their children about sexuality?</p></blockquote>
<p>Nothing. You&#8217;re perfectly free to teach your children whatever limited information you wish to provide. Being well-educated about sexual relationships and consequences does not require the imposition of biblical religious viewpoints by the schools.</p>
<blockquote><p>What happened to religious freedome and rights?</p></blockquote>
<p>Again, nothing. You are perfectly free to guide <i>your own life</i> by your own religious values. You are prefectly free to practice that relgion. And you have perfectly free to either home-school your child or enroll them in a religious parochial school of your choice. (Which, I might add, in some states for which you can acquire a government subsidized school voucher which is funded by <i>all</i> tax-payers.)</p>
<blockquote><p>This will truly devistate our state as it has Massachusetts.</p></blockquote>
<p>Facts only please. And keep in mind that Massachusetts has one of the lowest heterosexual divorce rates in the country. It&#8217;s the highly conservative states with the higher divorce rates.</p>
<blockquote><p>To all my friends and family who have embraced the same-sex lifestyle, you know how much I love you and understand the need to protect children, our religious freedoms and rights.</p></blockquote>
<p>Please spare us the guise of fauxe embraces when you aren&#8217;t even educated enough about these topics to know the facts, or that sexual orientation is NOT a life style. There are as many diverse life styles among gays and lesbians as there are among heterosexuals. So when you speak of the &#8220;gay life style&#8221; which life style exactly do you mean? That of the singles, those who are coupled and living the exact same life-style as a heterosexual couple excepting the sex of their partner? What you and your husband do in bed is NOT a life style.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18618</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18618</guid>
		<description>ctually Rhonda, if Prop 8 DOES pass your religious freedom is at stake. Prop 8 enshrines discrimination in your constitution. Where does that end? Then next step is that ALL children must be taught only one religion (and what if it doesn&#039;t happen to be yours?), then ONLY people with blue eyes will be allowed to marry (and yours are brown... sorry, but really it&#039;s just a right isn&#039;t it?)

Your last paragraph is completely disengenuous. &quot;You know how much I love you&quot;? Trust me Rhonda, you do not love them, or you wouldn&#039;t be trying to dictate who they can and cannot love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ctually Rhonda, if Prop 8 DOES pass your religious freedom is at stake. Prop 8 enshrines discrimination in your constitution. Where does that end? Then next step is that ALL children must be taught only one religion (and what if it doesn&#8217;t happen to be yours?), then ONLY people with blue eyes will be allowed to marry (and yours are brown&#8230; sorry, but really it&#8217;s just a right isn&#8217;t it?)</p>
<p>Your last paragraph is completely disengenuous. &#8220;You know how much I love you&#8221;? Trust me Rhonda, you do not love them, or you wouldn&#8217;t be trying to dictate who they can and cannot love.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18616</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18616</guid>
		<description>Rhonda,

You are astonishingly misinformed.  

Catholic charities in MA was publically funded (though that may not have been the only issue) and the decision had NOTHING to do with marriage but only with non-discrimination laws.

The OBGYN story is really about a California couple that were denied medical services by the only provider that their insurance covered.  Again, nothing to do with marriage.

Your school &quot;example&quot; is simply a lie.  Yep, just a big fat lie. (David Parker&#039;s nonsense notwithstanding).

But Rhonda, you don&#039;t care enough about the examples to even get the facts correct.  Which suggests that this isn&#039;t really about protecting children or religious freedoms.

Nope.

You have some other motivation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rhonda,</p>
<p>You are astonishingly misinformed.  </p>
<p>Catholic charities in MA was publically funded (though that may not have been the only issue) and the decision had NOTHING to do with marriage but only with non-discrimination laws.</p>
<p>The OBGYN story is really about a California couple that were denied medical services by the only provider that their insurance covered.  Again, nothing to do with marriage.</p>
<p>Your school &#8220;example&#8221; is simply a lie.  Yep, just a big fat lie. (David Parker&#8217;s nonsense notwithstanding).</p>
<p>But Rhonda, you don&#8217;t care enough about the examples to even get the facts correct.  Which suggests that this isn&#8217;t really about protecting children or religious freedoms.</p>
<p>Nope.</p>
<p>You have some other motivation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rhonda in California</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18615</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhonda in California</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18615</guid>
		<description>As a proponent for Proposition 8 I must say that you are missing the mark entirely as to why I as well as others are against it.

If Prop 8 doesn&#039;t pass we know that our religious freedom is at stake.  For instance in Massachusetts, the Catholic church had an adoption agency and were sued because they would not allow same-sex couple to adopt.  The couple won.  What happened to religious rights and freedome?

Another example:  in Massachusetts an OBGYN was sued and he lost because he would not do artifical insemination on a gay couple because &quot;of his religious views.&quot;

Another example:  In Massachusetts the children starting from the age of Kindergarten are being taught about same-sex attraction, same-sex couples, bisexuality etc. in the public schools regardless of parental view.  Who will protect the children?  What happened to parents right to teach their children about sexuality?  What happened to  religious freedome and rights?

This issue is much more than the same sex marriage.  This will truly devistate our state as it has Massachusetts.  

To all my friends and family who have embraced the same-sex lifestyle, you know how much I love you and understand the need to protect children, our religious freedoms and rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a proponent for Proposition 8 I must say that you are missing the mark entirely as to why I as well as others are against it.</p>
<p>If Prop 8 doesn&#8217;t pass we know that our religious freedom is at stake.  For instance in Massachusetts, the Catholic church had an adoption agency and were sued because they would not allow same-sex couple to adopt.  The couple won.  What happened to religious rights and freedome?</p>
<p>Another example:  in Massachusetts an OBGYN was sued and he lost because he would not do artifical insemination on a gay couple because &#8220;of his religious views.&#8221;</p>
<p>Another example:  In Massachusetts the children starting from the age of Kindergarten are being taught about same-sex attraction, same-sex couples, bisexuality etc. in the public schools regardless of parental view.  Who will protect the children?  What happened to parents right to teach their children about sexuality?  What happened to  religious freedome and rights?</p>
<p>This issue is much more than the same sex marriage.  This will truly devistate our state as it has Massachusetts.  </p>
<p>To all my friends and family who have embraced the same-sex lifestyle, you know how much I love you and understand the need to protect children, our religious freedoms and rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Marble</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18147</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Marble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18147</guid>
		<description>I appreciate the comments of all on the site. Mutual respect can go a long way in clarifying misunderstanding.  Each side has a constitutional right to voice it&#039;s opinion.  Those who respect the opinions of others even though they may disagree will have much more influence in their cause than those who do not.  Keep the respectful dialogue going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate the comments of all on the site. Mutual respect can go a long way in clarifying misunderstanding.  Each side has a constitutional right to voice it&#8217;s opinion.  Those who respect the opinions of others even though they may disagree will have much more influence in their cause than those who do not.  Keep the respectful dialogue going.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18118</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18118</guid>
		<description>Amy-- first, thanks for your support.

but you shouldn&#039;t be baffled. Hate-filled words have been coming from the AXIS powers (Anti-eX-gay-Industry-Slander) for years, decades, centuries, millenia. we have been blamed for plagues, earthquakes, child molesting, the fall of empires, the destruction of the family, and on and on and on.

for some people, it may be hate. I think for many, it is just plain old anger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amy&#8211; first, thanks for your support.</p>
<p>but you shouldn&#8217;t be baffled. Hate-filled words have been coming from the AXIS powers (Anti-eX-gay-Industry-Slander) for years, decades, centuries, millenia. we have been blamed for plagues, earthquakes, child molesting, the fall of empires, the destruction of the family, and on and on and on.</p>
<p>for some people, it may be hate. I think for many, it is just plain old anger.</p>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18098</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 04:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18098</guid>
		<description>My only point is that it would be nice to find more discussion of the actual issue and why it is important instead of the mud slinging that happens when you only talk about the opponents.

In the article, it says &quot;But I believe that anti-Mormon sentiment in California is strong.&quot;  I hope that California can be a place that isn&#039;t &quot;anti&quot; anyone.

And I agree - the horrible things said of Bruce Bastian and other supporters on other websites is awful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My only point is that it would be nice to find more discussion of the actual issue and why it is important instead of the mud slinging that happens when you only talk about the opponents.</p>
<p>In the article, it says &#8220;But I believe that anti-Mormon sentiment in California is strong.&#8221;  I hope that California can be a place that isn&#8217;t &#8220;anti&#8221; anyone.</p>
<p>And I agree &#8211; the horrible things said of Bruce Bastian and other supporters on other websites is awful.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/09/17/2978/comment-page-1#comment-18086</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 00:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=2978#comment-18086</guid>
		<description>Amy,

If you can find examples of &quot;anti-Mormonism&quot; here, please point it out. 

Criticism of LDS political activities is no different from criticism of anyone else&#039;s activities. No organization gets a free pass by dint of religious affiliation. That isn&#039;t &quot;anti-Mormonism&quot;, that&#039;s just criticizing a powerful organization, one of many that we have criticized over the years.

Besides, we are more than happy to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/07/30/592&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;report positive developments&lt;/a&gt; concerning the Mormon church whenever we can find them. Unfortunately, such steps are rare and small. 

If you know of positive news from an LGBT perspective, then please, by all means, pass them on and we&#039;d be happy to post it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amy,</p>
<p>If you can find examples of &#8220;anti-Mormonism&#8221; here, please point it out. </p>
<p>Criticism of LDS political activities is no different from criticism of anyone else&#8217;s activities. No organization gets a free pass by dint of religious affiliation. That isn&#8217;t &#8220;anti-Mormonism&#8221;, that&#8217;s just criticizing a powerful organization, one of many that we have criticized over the years.</p>
<p>Besides, we are more than happy to <a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/07/30/592" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">report positive developments</a> concerning the Mormon church whenever we can find them. Unfortunately, such steps are rare and small. </p>
<p>If you know of positive news from an LGBT perspective, then please, by all means, pass them on and we&#8217;d be happy to post it.</p>
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