You tried to attribute an argument to Rusty that Rusty did not make. That is a clear, textbook example of a strawman argument. And it is against our comments policy.

FOR EVERYONE ELSE:

I would also have to observe that this thread has become a private conversation with, maybe, three people. Not only that, but it has devolved to an example of argument for arguments’ sake — not to mention that it is now horribly off topic.

This thread is not a discussion about the merits and/or downside to conformity (however that’s defined), the closet, or any other framework anyone wants to advance along those lines. It’s a nonsensical argument anyway. Even the most deeply closeted or gender-conforming gay people are nonconformists — they have sex with people of their own gender. So to argue that conformity is a virtue or a vice is completely nonsensical. If you’re gay, then by definition, you’re nonconformist.

And to argue that conformity is protective or provocative is equally ridiculous. Conformity is always protective, but absolute conformity is always impossible for gay people, just by virtue of who they are as gay people, let alone as individuals. And to blame people for being nonconformist is to open up a whole can of worms on attaching blame to victims rather than perpetrators. Which, as far as I’m concerned, is a non-starter.

Okay, those are my two cents. NOW, let’s go back to the main topic of the thread, or let’s move on to something else. Otherwise, I’ll be closing comments to this thread.

Words like “fag,” “homo,” and “queer” have even worse connotations than “homosexual,” but why are these terms somehow acceptable among most gay people while the other is not? I don’t see anything wrong with calling a gay person a homosexual…. because that’s what he IS.

By the way, I have no “insistence” on using one word over another. If you scroll up a bit, you’ll notice that I use the word “gay” quite often, even in describing myself. So your claim that I use a certain word to denigrate same-sex attracted people is demonstrably false and, since I’m gay myself, also kind of nonsensical.

The vast majority of same sex attracted people prefer to be referred to as gay rather than “homosexal”. Your insistance on using “homosexual” with its negative connotations indicates a desire to denigrate same sex attracted people. Most people will use the term preferred by the majority to avoid offending the fewest people.

I said “No one should have to pretend they are someone they aren’t in order to please bigots.”

Alex responded “Yet another way in which the gay community expects conformity. Whoever said that gay people MUST come out of the closet? It’s not a duty or a rite of passage. And if someone chooses not to broadcast their sexuality to the world, that’s not the same thing as “pleasing the bigots.” It’s their personal choice, and you should respect that.”.

It has nothing to do with conformity. Most people live in the closet to avoid the criticism and negative consequences of anti-gay people realizing their orientation. That oppression is wrong, wrong wrong! You think an appropriate response to that is to accept it as it is with no effort to end the wrongdoing. I couldn’t disagree with you more. Without this oppression there would be precious few people “choosing” to live in the closet. As a fair minded person you should be offended by and fighting against that oppression. In the absense of such coercion then and only then would it be fine for people to choose to live in the closet.

Maybe we should let Rusty answer for himself.

Nobody said Bingham’s death was more meaningful than anyone else. Nobody said that he meant more than anyone else on the flight. Nobody said that nobody else’s life was affected by gay people.

His name came up simply because McCain was asked to name a gay role model.

I have no idea where you’re going with all of these strawman arguments that you’re throwing up, but I think its time to give it a rest.

EVERYONE: please read our comments policy (which, by the way, has a clear admonition against stawman arguments). This thread has clearly gone way off topic.

So, basically the fact that Mark Bingham was gay means that his death is more meaningful than anyone else’s on board that plane? That seems to be what you’re implying, otherwise you’d have shown me videos of the other United 93 victims along with his. I know you single him out because he was gay like you, but that doesn’t mean his sacrifice is the only one worth noting.

And let’s not ignore the OTHER people whose lives were affected by his death. It’s pretty egocentric to say that “many gays and lesbians’ lives were changed” without even mentioning anyone else. If that plane was indeed headed for the Capitol, I’d say Bingham’s death affected far more than just three percent of the population.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBiBmwwrKzs

Mark Bingham lived a private life, almost a closeted life. . .

but with his death, his heroic death, many gays and lesbian’s lives were changed

How does the statement.“No one should have to pretend they are someone they aren’t in order to please bigots” morph into “That gay people MUST come out of the closet”?

This conversation could go on forever, so I’ll just address two more of your comments and leave it at that:

“For someone who claims to be gay you sure like the ‘homosexual’ term. Many gay people find that offensive.”

What are you trying to say? That because I used a word that some people don’t like, I must not really be gay? Or that I must be dealing with internalized homophobia? For God’s sake, this is what I can’t stand about the gay community. Everyone’s so afraid of offending anyone else. If someone like me doesn’t conform to what makes YOU comfortable, then I must not be “gay” enough to be a part of the club! Do you expect me to apologize for not being as PC as you and for not using the word that all the newspapers say I should use? Please. I really couldn’t care less if you or other gay people are offended by the word ‘homosexual.’ Here’s a piece of advice: no matter what term you think is appropriate, there’s always someone else out there who will be offended. So just toughen up and deal with it.

“No one should have to pretend they are someone they aren’t in order to please bigots.”

Yet another way in which the gay community expects conformity. Whoever said that gay people MUST come out of the closet? It’s not a duty or a rite of passage. And if someone chooses not to broadcast their sexuality to the world, that’s not the same thing as “pleasing the bigots.” It’s their personal choice, and you should respect that.