Box Turtle Bulletin
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobby“Now you must raise your children up in a world where that union of man and box turtle is on the same legal footing as man and wife…”
News and commentary about the anti-gay lobbyOctober 22nd, 2008
Californians Against Hate released figures yesterday that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, aka the Mormons) have contributed $17.67 million (77%) to support passage of Proposition 8 in California. Additionally, the group reports that Mormons have contributed almost all of the $6.9 million to pass Proposition 102 in Arizona. The group did not give an exact figure for Arizona.
[Fred] Karger said Californians Against Hate came up with the figures by cross-referencing donor information from the California secretary of state with Brigham Young University alumni lists, church memberships, and other personal documentation that could identify Mormon Church members. He said the surge in support has been an attempt to boost the church’s social standing among the greater religious community.
“For whatever reason, they’re trying to get some respect from other religions,” he told The Advocate Tuesday. “They’ve always been looked down upon by the Christians, the Catholics, and evangelicals.”
Success with the marriage amendment would give the church credibility, Karger said.
We are in a very tough fight against a formidable opponent. Please give as generously as you can today.
Latest Posts
Featured Reports
In this original BTB Investigation, we unveil the tragic story of Kirk Murphy, a four-year-old boy who was treated for “cross-gender disturbance” in 1970 by a young grad student by the name of George Rekers. This story is a stark reminder that there are severe and damaging consequences when therapists try to ensure that boys will be boys.
When we first reported on three American anti-gay activists traveling to Kampala for a three-day conference, we had no idea that it would be the first report of a long string of events leading to a proposal to institute the death penalty for LGBT people. But that is exactly what happened. In this report, we review our collection of more than 500 posts to tell the story of one nation’s embrace of hatred toward gay people. This report will be updated continuously as events continue to unfold. Check here for the latest updates.
In 2005, the Southern Poverty Law Center wrote that “[Paul] Cameron’s ‘science’ echoes Nazi Germany.” What the SPLC didn”t know was Cameron doesn’t just “echo” Nazi Germany. He quoted extensively from one of the Final Solution’s architects. This puts his fascination with quarantines, mandatory tattoos, and extermination being a “plausible idea” in a whole new and deeply disturbing light.
On February 10, I attended an all-day “Love Won Out” ex-gay conference in Phoenix, put on by Focus on the Family and Exodus International. In this series of reports, I talk about what I learned there: the people who go to these conferences, the things that they hear, and what this all means for them, their families and for the rest of us.
Prologue: Why I Went To “Love Won Out”
Part 1: What’s Love Got To Do With It?
Part 2: Parents Struggle With “No Exceptions”
Part 3: A Whole New Dialect
Part 4: It Depends On How The Meaning of the Word "Change" Changes
Part 5: A Candid Explanation For "Change"
At last, the truth can now be told.
Using the same research methods employed by most anti-gay political pressure groups, we examine the statistics and the case studies that dispel many of the myths about heterosexuality. Download your copy today!
And don‘t miss our companion report, How To Write An Anti-Gay Tract In Fifteen Easy Steps.
Anti-gay activists often charge that gay men and women pose a threat to children. In this report, we explore the supposed connection between homosexuality and child sexual abuse, the conclusions reached by the most knowledgeable professionals in the field, and how anti-gay activists continue to ignore their findings. This has tremendous consequences, not just for gay men and women, but more importantly for the safety of all our children.
Anti-gay activists often cite the “Dutch Study” to claim that gay unions last only about 1½ years and that the these men have an average of eight additional partners per year outside of their steady relationship. In this report, we will take you step by step into the study to see whether the claims are true.
Tony Perkins’ Family Research Council submitted an Amicus Brief to the Maryland Court of Appeals as that court prepared to consider the issue of gay marriage. We examine just one small section of that brief to reveal the junk science and fraudulent claims of the Family “Research” Council.
The FBI’s annual Hate Crime Statistics aren’t as complete as they ought to be, and their report for 2004 was no exception. In fact, their most recent report has quite a few glaring holes. Holes big enough for Daniel Fetty to fall through.
“Google” is a trademark of Google Inc.
© Box Turtle Bulletin. All Rights Reserved.
Posts 
Posts via daily email:
Pomo
October 22nd, 2008
I look forward to the next time Mormon missionaries stop me to talk. I will be kind, for sure, but I will also tell them that despite the best intentions of their church, all this campaign is doing is further driving away a segment of the population from faith.
Its the same with evangelical Christians. They care more about being right than they do about the people Jesus commands them to love.
cowboy
October 22nd, 2008
Their only quest for respectability is getting the Evangelicals to vote for Mitt Romney in 2012. Other than that, there is no love between them. Mormons are content with their money and status as it stands.
jOHN
October 22nd, 2008
I think the money they are pouring in to this campaign is money that was to go into Mitt Romney’s campaign. In 4 years they will come back and say we protected you from the gays and we have the power to choose who can be elected as president. it is about power and acceptence.
Emily K
October 22nd, 2008
I don’t get it. If they’re NOT trying to “get in with the cool kids of Christianity” then why are they doing this??? And why do people have to search to find the connection? why don’t they just come out publicly with it?
cowboy
October 22nd, 2008
It’s probably too hard to explain but there are factions within the Mormon Church. There are groups of Mormons that hold onto strict interpretations of the LDS dogma and probably still have resentment over giving up polygamy and giving Blacks the keys to their Priesthood. And then there is a not so subtle anti-gay bigotry (well..duh) in the main-stream Mormon Church.
You’ll remember the fracas last year when the little town on the Utah-Arizona border (Kanab) got into national news for resolution to promote a “natural family†in their town’s constitution. Remember the “quiver of children†thing…These like-minded people run a very conservative think-tank in the very heart of Salt Lake City. Their political acumen is hard to ignore and their influence on Mormon General Authorities is extensive. It’s hard to say if Sutherland Institute is controlling the Mormon Church or vice versa. But, right now, they are in control of the Mormon Church. We were hoping the new Prophet T.S. Monson would take control and tone things down a bit.
There is another aspect to consider. Many Mormons will tell you there is a “faith-promoting rumor†that has circulated in the Church for eons. It tells of how the Mormons will rescue the U.S. Constitution…(because it was divinely inspired). Many Mormons feel Mitt Romney could be that savior of the Nation in these latter days. There is a real sense of power in the Mormon Church right now. They were this close >< to having Mitt as the next President (or at least the Veep).
However, you can come across some enlightened Mormons (mormonsformarriage.com) and Andrew Sullivan has given note to the youtube video on this website.
Generalizations aside, there are complexities about the Mormons that would take some time in explaining. This anti-gay fervor is just a test and a demonstration of their power.
John
October 22nd, 2008
This anti-gay fervor may just be a test to demostrate their power, but it also sets them up for implacable enemies.
I really didn’t have much feeling, one way or the other about the Mormons. Their politicians (like Sen. Hatch) were conservative. I wasn’t likely to vote for them, but didn’t see them as a special threat.
Now, I can’t see myself ever voting for a Mormon. I would be tempted to register as a Republican, so that I could vote against Mormon politicians in primary elections. I would be far more likely to contribute to those running against Mormon politicians, and I have become convinced that the high ranking Mormon church officials in Utah do have the intention of accumulating national political power.
I am suspicious of all religious groups that try to gain political power. The Mormons have proven that they are very interested in political power. I have come to the conclusion that they have become a very dangerous force in American politics, and a true threat to American democracy.
As for the poor Mormon missionaries that might come to my door… I am unlikely to be too harsh on them out of pity, but they are unlikely to get my previous “Sorry, not interested” response.
Karen from San Diego
October 22nd, 2008
I think I’m going to have an iniative put on the ballot against Mormon’s Magic Underwear! Magic underwear offends me and confuses little children about what is real underwear or not. Maybe my children will think their underwear is magic (like the mormons) and will jump out of a 10 story building thinking they can fly?! How dangerous! We MUST put this on the ballot!! This is the same type of thinking the Morons use. . .
Timothy Kincaid
October 22nd, 2008
Karen,
This is not an anti-Mormon site. We disagree with the dishonesty we’ve seen in this campaign and in the church’s willingness to impose their theological beliefs about marriage on the non-believing populace, but we DO NOT mock their faith or their beliefs. Nor do we call them names.
Thanks
Kelsha
November 12th, 2008
Our church officials did make a statement, requesting that all LDS people be active in Prop 8, however much they felt was appropriate. People of the LDS faith on individual levels feel very strongly about marriage…So, this is the reason why you saw so many “mormons” out for the cause.
I do wonder what the person was talking about that said that mormons are interested in political power…Our church NEVER has, nor ever will tell us who to vote for. The statements are Always the same…They ask us to study the issues, and to vote for who we FEEL good about and who we think will stand for our beliefes. Never will church officials tell their members who to vote for.
This had nothing to do with trying to “get on the good side” or whatever of other churches. Our church holds the true doctrines of Christ, restored to the earth. The church does not need to concern themselves with getting on anyone’s good side. Truths will be taught, the spirit will touch hearts, and people are converted to the truth. Like was pointed out, for so many members of the church to go out an actively fight for Prop 8, has made a lot of people upset at our church.
We stand firm. Knowing that we love all people. We work to have a christ like love for everyone regardless of them being gay, fat, loud mouths, ugly, rude, being whatever they are. We know it is not our place to pass Judgment on them…However, we do know we need to make judgments about things for our own families.
We do not wish pain on people who are gay. We don’t hate them. This is a matter of protecting all that we hold dearest. We know that a man and woman ONE WOMAN, need to be married, and that from that all of Heavenly Father’s Eternal blessings can flow.
cowboy
November 12th, 2008
Kelsha,
I’m assuming you did not vote for Proposition 8 because that would inflict pain on people who are gay …correct?
Would you vote for Proposition 8 if you had someone in your immediate family who is gay?
Stefano A
November 12th, 2008
Kelsha:
This should not be a difficult concept to grasp. And it is a concept that doesn’t apply only to the Mormon Church but to all people of faith who wish to impose religious beliefs onto all of a society.
The offense is the injection of that faith into public policy in a diverse society of many diverse and competing thelogical and non-theological viewpoints. While your theological views may be hurtful (and the LGB community recognizes how those views can also lead to incitement to hatred and actual violence), the views that homosexuality itself is “sinful†was also not the issue.
The LGB community is not trying to prevent the church’s refusal to recognize SSM or those of faith the first amendment right to state and believe that “homosexuality is a sin” or that “marriage is for one man and one woman” as it pertains to your personal lives or the operation of their chuch in using such beliefs to guide your own lives and church cermonies. Even when we find such a belief offensive to our own existence.
What we find problematic is not the church’s or the church’s faithful choosing not to recognize same sex marriage, but rather the imposition of that faith unto civil law in order to subvert the equal treatment of similarly situated individuals.
Stefano A
November 12th, 2008
Addendum:
We do not live in a theocratic nation where sectarian religious belief is the first foundation of law. Rather we live in a society where equal treatment and the cornerstone belief that a majority should not be able to tyrannize a minority based on personal beliefs.
Stefano A
November 12th, 2008
… is the guiding principle.
Sorry for the failure to complete that thought.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
True, however, we also live in a Country where we have the legal freedom to vote based on our own personal opinions…
A church can not be blamed for having many members who feel strongly about what they believe…
I am sure we are working towards a day very soon when there are more people in this Country who feel strongly that gays should be married. That’s America. Also, that is God’s plan for us. He gave us our free agency…We choose our decisions, he shows us the outcome of our choices.
Again, LDS People do NOT hate people who are gay.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
sorry, did not see the above comments…
I don’t know any LDS person, who doesn’t want gays to have rights…Tax rights, medical rights, loan rights…It’s not a matter of imposing pain. It’s a matter of the definition of marriage.
Our church particularly does adoptions. My husband and I adopted our daughter summer of last year through LDS Family services. If Prop 8 had not passed, it is my understanding that LDSFS would no longer do adoptions in the state of CA, Because, if they continued, but refused to place children with gay parents, they would be being sued.
I understand the pain…I understand the longing that people who are gay have to be married. I don’t happen to have anyone in my immediate family that is gay, however I have had a few gay friends. And yes, if I lived in CA like I used to, I still would have voted for Prop 8. Hoping that my family/friend could understand that I love them, and don’t want pain for them, but that I would be choosing to vote for something that I FELT was important for myself, and my family.
Yes, the LDS faith does believe that participating in homosexual sex is a sin. We acknoweledge those who say from Birth they have felt gay. Our leaders hearts go out to them. I have heard many talks where the leaders of te church cry for the turmoil in those people’s lives. But, the gospel doctrine is still clear, that pre marital sex is wrong, that a man laying with a man is wrong, and that marriage is between a man and a woman.
I don’t think you would find many LDS people who feel hate towards gay people. Most of us hurt thinking of all the pain…and just the trouble they go through to survive in this world. To feel loved…
Sorry if my speaking is plain. I hope you can feel my sincerity though…That it’s not a matter of hate for us.
Timothy Kincaid
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha,
you have been fed a pack of lies and you chose to believe them.
Did your church tell you that LDS Family services still operates in Massachusetts and that they still refuse to place adoptions to gays there? Nope, they just told you that Catholic services closed.
They didn’t tell you that it was because they took public funds and that it had nothing to do with marriage.
If I were you, I’d be pretty angry at your church for lying to you.
What you FELT was important was to take away civil equality and constitutional rights from others. Rights, incidentally, that you believe are of great importance to yourself.
Your “friends” understand exactly how you FEEL about them. So if they don’t ever speak to you again I’m sure you’ll understand.
Incidentally, Kelsha, I have no objection to your church teaching it’s religious doctrines or of you following them. But you and your church have stepped outside of religion and sought to impose your faith on me.
And I’m not Mormon. I should not be forced to observe your faith. My church supports marriage equality but you seem to believe that your church should control civil law and restrict the rights of my church to enact their sacraments as we see best.
So please know that appeals to “understanding” or to “opinions” or to “religion” or to “feeling” will not work. You can have all those things…. until you seek to impose on me, my family, and my faith.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/public-issues/same-gender-attraction
please read that link, I know it’s long…It speaks very well about the feelings of the church and it’s members on the matter…
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
You’re angry…I’m sorry you feel such contention towards me. :(
Timothy Kincaid
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha,
Nope. I’m not angry.
I’m just pointing out that the love that you say that you have is inconsistent with your behavior. Love is not something you say or even something you feel… it’s something you do.
Your church is doing real and tangible harm to gay individuals and couples. There are lives being damaged.
If you believe that doctrines and beliefs and positions and politics are all more important than the damage you are doing, then I have to say that you do not know the Jesus Christ that I know.
Timothy Kincaid
November 13th, 2008
I’ve read Elder Oaks’ statements before. While they are not “hateful”, they are dismissive. And flat wrong about sexual orientation.
But that’s just fine for your doctrine.
But you’ve stepped outside church position and decided that Your Church gets to veto the sacraments of My Church.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
by sacraments, do you mean teachings? Your church has just as much rights as ours does to “fight for” your teachings…
Jason D
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha, what on earth did you think would happen when you took people’s rights away?
Did you expect them to be overjoyed?
Did you expect them to hug you and pat you on the back?
Did you expect them to suffer in silence?
How would YOU explain to your children that a bunch of people who don’t know you just unmarried you and your husband?
All these cries for “understanding” are hollow, at no point did you EVER try to “understand” the consequences of what you were doing to us!!
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
where would all of these rights of everyone ever stop?…I do not mean to put homosexual behavior on the same level as child molesters or people who have sex with animals…But, will there come a time when people’s rights are being too imposed on…so we start letting people have sex with animals and chilren…and we start letting people steal, because it’s their right? Will we get to a point where churches can not teach that murder is wrong? Because someone feels it’s their right to kill??
Where will it end? The 2nd coming is where it will end…But until that time, we all, individuals, churches…we all have the right to stand up, and say how We want it to be…
EVERYONE can no be accomidated…
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
Have I not said I feel for you…It realyl DOES cause me pain to think of all that gays go through through this whole thing…
Does that make me not believe the doctrines of the gospel that say marriage is between a man and woman? No…I still believe those teachings…
And more importantly, I believe in the Savior who not only came and suffered for our Sins…But he came and suffered for our pain.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
further more…how can you say I NEVER tried to understand? I can try to understand your “side” and still choose to vote how I will…
Jim Burroway
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha,
Re: I do not mean to put homosexual behavior on the same level as child molesters or people who have sex with animals…
Yes you do! — because you went on to use it as justification for your bigoted opinions anyway. Don’t lie about it. If you didn’t mean to do it, you wouldn’t have mentioned it in the first place. But you went there, all on your own.
We have nothing to do with child molestors or sex with animals. It is deeply insulting for you to even bring it up. But you did, and now everyone here knows exactly what you believe and where you stand.
So no, I don’t think you can EVER understand. As long as you carry an attitude like that, you can frankly take your self-described “pain” somewhere else.
You’re on moderation. If you can be civil, I will release your comments to the forum. If you can carry on a civil discussion, you’re welcome to stick around. But I’m paying for this forum, and I’ll not stand here and let insults like that go unanswered.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
I wasn’t putting it on the same level..I was making a list of things, that generally churches teach to be wrong, such as stealing, murder, sex…
I said I don’t mean to be putting it on the same level, because I knew if I put it in the same paragraph as ANY of those things, most of you would think I was saying that…
If you don’t want an LDS person, or prticularly this LDS person’s opinions on this chat, I wont post here anymore. I thought the point of this wasto try and LEARN and UNDERSTAND how and why the other side feels the way they do…
Jason D
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha,
If you cannot tell the difference between two adult people who love each other and someone who attacks a child or animal — your moral compass is broken. These acts are not consentual, homosexuality is consensual. We do not maim, torture, or mentally abuse our partners, that is not what we are about.
And to compare us to murder??? The very defintion of murder is harming someone! You cannot be a murderer if you haven’t hurt anyone! No one is hurt by homosexuality. No one.
Nobody said your church could not teach what it believes, but when you vote to put that onto everyone else: you cross a line.
The very document, the Constitution, that gives you the right, the FREEDOM to disagree with homosexuality is the same document that says we all deserve equality before the law. Prop 8 is an attack on the constitution. If you can vote on my rights, what’s to stop me from voting on yours next? You know the history of your church, Kelsha? You know the horrible things done to your people just because of their beliefs? You know the horrible things that other Christians say about Mormons, don’t you? You have now invited that ugliness to return. You have now invited people to vote on YOUR RIGHTS. You have compromised the very freedom you hold so dear. THAT is what you have done!
It would not have hurt your religion one bit to allow gays to continue to marry. You were suffering in no way because of it. Just as you are not suffering because divorce is illegal, and the Bible strictly forbids it.
Nobody said that “everyone” had to be accomodated, your’e changing the subject.
Saying “I feel for you” is useless if you still take people’s freedoms away. And you cannot say you understand if you are not willing to answer my question:
“How would you explain to your children that bunch of people who don’t know you just unmarried you and your husband?”
Jim Burroway
November 13th, 2008
If you don’t want an LDS person, or prticularly this LDS person’s opinions on this chat, I wont post here anymore. I thought the point of this wasto try and LEARN and UNDERSTAND how and why the other side feels the way they do…
If it’s any comfort to you, I think it’s safe to say that with what you’ve written we now know and understand very well why you feel the way you do.
Unfortunately, I only wish you would do the same.
Stefano A
November 13th, 2008
Pretty amaizing comments Klesha.
You are aware aren’t you, that for reasons of because “this is my faith” and “my faith is superior to all others” is exactly why for 150 years in Ireland Protestants and Catholics couldn’t marry one another.
You’re not providing justifications for your actions, you’re providing rationalizations.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
I would assume that I know the history of my church much better than you. One of my churches a few roads from my house had a Book of Mormon set fire on it’s steps on Tuesday. One of our churches in UT has had all of it’s windows and doors shot out…they could have killed someone. Gay people take our sacred unerwear, mock them….post photos of them…put them up on sticks…
We know that people will hav hate for us. It really was not long ago in our history that the church members were being killed often, just for believing…My dad served a mission for our church to St Louis, and the year he went was the year the law that it waslegal to kill mormons in that state was finally taken off the books.
I know the history, very well. And yes, the hate that is coming at us from this, does scare me. It does scare me to be at one of our buildings, and possibly be killed.
As for your Question…I did not know you wanted a literal answer…
But since me expressing any sadness or pain I feel for gay peopl seems to make you guys mad…You think someone can notfeel compassion and still feel their convictions???
I don’t know how to address your question…Because my answer would be, yes, it must be VERY HARD for you to tell your children that…And it must cause your family GREAT SADNESS…And for that, for the pain I am sorry…
You want the literal words that I would tell my children?
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
I’m not seeing my last post…
I have told you I have tried and do understand where you are coming from…Will no one acknowledge that you can understand someone else, but still hold to your own thoughts????
justification – something (such as a fact or circumstance) that shows an action to be reasonable or necessary; “he considered misrule a justification for revolution”
Rationalization (psychology), the process of constructing a logical justification for a decision that was originally arrived at through a different mental process
???
Kelsha2
November 13th, 2008
not accepting my comments anymore…?
Timothy Kincaid
November 13th, 2008
No. I mean sacraments, such as marriage.
And in case you’ve forgotten, we don’t have to “fight for” our constitutionally granted freedoms of religion. The government is barred from establishing religion, even yours Kelsha.
Or, at least it is at the moment. But I guess if we can put up the principal of “equality under the law” to a popular vote we could also put up “freedom of religion” to a popular vote. I wonder how well the Mormon Church would do it it came up for a vote in, say, Arkansas.
Frankly, I don’t believe that you feel pain for me. You feel pain that your behaviors are being exposed as damaging to others.
You are upset that your behavior had consequences and you wish we would just stop hurting so you could go back to feeling justified in doing what you did.
And you are angry with us for exposing the cruelty of your church and it’s actions. You are mad at us for letting you know how badly you damaged us.
Well, you DID damage us and we aren’t going to pretend otherwise just to save your feelings. We will not place your need to feel justified above our own rights and freedoms.
Maybe you should consider that what you are feeling isn’t “pain” at all. Maybe what you are feeling is guilt.
And as for “learning” or “understanding”, I haven’t seen you demonstrate any. All I’ve seen is a desire to justify what you know deep in your heart is discrimination and cruelty.
Kelsha
November 13th, 2008
It’s not letting me reply to you guys anymore…convenient…
Timothy Kincaid
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha,
Your comments were caught in a spam filter. I just released them.
Timothy Kincaid
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha,
You tell such a sad tale. A Book of Mormon was burnt on a church steps. Some windows were shot out by a bb gun.
Ironically, in March of this year there were reports that some Mormon missionaries vandalized a Catholic shrine in Colorado.
Now I’m sure you condemn the vandalism by your Church’s missionaries. And I condemn the vandalism at your churches (whether it was by gays or not).
But if we want to talk about damage and vandalism and fear, lets start with the 18,000 couples that your church attacked. While burning a Book of Mormon – a sacred text – is very disrespectful, it falls far far short of the disrespect you have shown to those couples, their families, their communities, and their churches.
I’m willing to condemn the disrespect shown your text. Are you willing to condemn the disrespect shown by your church and its leadership to the sacred vows of 18,000 couples?
Jason D
November 13th, 2008
Timothy has a great point:
the Mormon Church disrespected an entire minority group. A group of tax-paying, law-abiding citizens were targeted and disrepected by a church.
I condemn any harm or violence against any people of faith for any reason, I condemn any disrespect.
Will Kelsha do the same?
Or will se say “I have a right to my beliefs!” and run off, never understanding that her freedom of religion does not trump my freedom of religion?
cowboy
November 13th, 2008
Jason D,
Your point about our reaction should be “overjoyed” is spot on. How could they not foresee our reaction if the Propositions passed as they did? It doesn’t take a fortune-teller.
Kelsha,
please, go and read some of the stuff on:
mormonsformarriage.com
I can’t believe some people think I should live my life alone and never love or be loved. That’s too sadistic. At least Rev. Phelps wants us to die. That would be less painful.
grandpasmurf9520
November 13th, 2008
A lot of people are puzzled as to why the mormon church spent so much money, time and effort to get prop 8 passed.
If it is not challenged in the Supreme Court, it will indicate to them that the apathy of the majority shows that the time is ripe to take over the country !
I know this sounds outrageous but it can easily be verified with a study of their own documents which are spread all over the web. I encourage everyone to examine these things for themselves !
We really have to wake up and defend our constituion ! I know it is politically incorrect to bash other people’s religion but I feel that it is urgent that we defend our country against the very real threat of a Theocracy run by a Wacky bloodthirsty prophet !
Our democracy is under attack !
remember the Mountain Meadows Massacre !
Don’t let it happen again !
God is Love Not Hate !
AJD
November 13th, 2008
Kelsha,
I condemn any act of vandalism or violence, though I would condemn the burning of the Book of Mormon because of the possibility that it could cause a fire, not because it’s disrespectful.
Still, what the LDS church has done, along with every single person who donated to Yes On 8 and voted in favor of the amendment, is an act of legislative violence against gay people. Gay couples across California that have been together for years or decades are now confined to a status inferior to that of two drunks in Las Vegas who get hitched for a day at a drive-in wedding chapel.
And if you want to talk about physical violence, gays are one of the main groups targeted for hate crimes, and we suffer the most violent attacks.
Louie
November 13th, 2008
In regards to Mr. Kincaid’s reference to “sacred” vows. I just wanted to clarify for everyone that when my husband and I got married on June 27th 2008 our vows were 100% secular and we don’t consider them “sacred” in the holy/religious sense of the word.
To begin with I don’t believe in God and Tim is not too inclined either. So, why would we want our marriage blessed by anything we don’t believe in? So, it’s ridiculous to believe that gays would force churches to marry them. What the hell for? We don’t go to their church, we don’t believe in God, why would I set foot in the place and force a priest to marry us?
It’s bad enough that people see no difference between a “holy” church marriage and a secular “civil” marriage.
For the sake of clarity, I will post the secular, “civil” marriage vows that my husband Tim and I vowed to each other on that beautiful San Diego day.
After that I have posted the marriage vows that Mormons say to each other when they get married by their church.
I should highlight that the Deputy Marriage Commissioner was not an ordained minister, but rather a public employee whose salary is paid for with taxpayer money. And she did not hold a Bible in her hand or any other “holy” book of any other religion.
Louie
November 13th, 2008
Now, compare our “civil” marriage ceremony to the “holy” marriage ceremony of the Mormons:
Anyone else notice any difference between these two ceremonies?
Timothy Kincaid
November 13th, 2008
Louie,
Perhaps you misunderstood. Yours, and probably others of the 18,000 weddings that took place, did not contain a religious component.
But Kelsha was complaining about a religious text that was burned. I was making the point that she and her church had demeaned the religious service that many of those 18,000 people held.
Whoever burn the Book of Mormon offended her religious faith. But by changing the constitution to recognize the marriages that her church deems worthy and to forbid the marriages that my church and many many others deem worthy was also a religious offense.
And for those ready to point out the obvious:
Yes I know that marriage is civil and not religious when recognized by the State.
I’m trying to get through to Kelsha that by seeking to impose a religious litmus test on State recognition, she was doing EXACTLY what she accused us of doing: offending religion.
Kristin
November 13th, 2008
Well, I live out in Georgia, and I am Mormon. I have several gay friends and have no issues with them. They are incredible people. As far as marriage is concerned, I’m not sure. I don’t think it should be my personal decision how these people choose to live their personal lives. Would I vote for gay marriage? I don’t know. At this point, if it ever came up in GA, I might just leave that one blank. I don’t have the authority to tell people how they can practice their own free will. I tend to lean more towards, “let people do what they want, God will sort it all out in the end.” God gave us all free will to do with it what we wish, and I can’t impose my feelings or beliefs upon another human being, force them to think the way I think, or take away any of their rights as human beings. It just doesn’t work like that. If we were all meant to be the same, all the men would look exactly the same, all the women would look the same, we’d have the same names and hair styles, and there would be no differences, opposites, or variety on this sad little planet. But we do have differences and variety.
There will always be those, regardless of religion, upbringing, or personal lifestyle, that think they have a gift or right to lead other people, to make choices for them, or to prevent them from doing some unseen harm to themselves or others. I would have to place these people in the category of politicians… but that’s just my opinion. You’re entitled to your own.
-Kristin
Leave A Comment