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	<title>Comments on: Mormon Times: CA Gays are &#8220;Sore Losers&#8221;</title>
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	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: David C.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-27757</link>
		<dc:creator>David C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-27757</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
My struggle for civil equality is not a football game. The analogy itself is profoundly trivialising and demeaning. 
 &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Lee Benson was trivializing and demeaning the response of all those that wanted to see Prop 8 defeated and protested its passage.  He chose language designed to marginalize and demean Prop 8 opponents.  It&#039;s a psychological move designed to cheer his side and demoralize ours.  I&#039;m glad we are not taking the bait, but the analogy may be more apt than anyone thinks.  

No, our struggle isn&#039;t a football game, but gay rights is a political football for some, and all players need to be reminded that there is a line-backer ready to tackle them if they try to run with that ball.  And though we believe gay rights to be a noble cause and worthy of respect, we are playing a rough game here. 

Sometimes we will fail and our opponent will succeed.  Eventually we will get our turn at offense and advance our cause.  In the meantime, we must play a good defense to avoid loosing the ground we have gained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
My struggle for civil equality is not a football game. The analogy itself is profoundly trivialising and demeaning.
 </p></blockquote>
<p>Lee Benson was trivializing and demeaning the response of all those that wanted to see Prop 8 defeated and protested its passage.  He chose language designed to marginalize and demean Prop 8 opponents.  It&#8217;s a psychological move designed to cheer his side and demoralize ours.  I&#8217;m glad we are not taking the bait, but the analogy may be more apt than anyone thinks.  </p>
<p>No, our struggle isn&#8217;t a football game, but gay rights is a political football for some, and all players need to be reminded that there is a line-backer ready to tackle them if they try to run with that ball.  And though we believe gay rights to be a noble cause and worthy of respect, we are playing a rough game here. </p>
<p>Sometimes we will fail and our opponent will succeed.  Eventually we will get our turn at offense and advance our cause.  In the meantime, we must play a good defense to avoid loosing the ground we have gained.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26988</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26988</guid>
		<description>My struggle for civil equality is not a football game.  The analogy itself is profoundly trivialising and demeaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My struggle for civil equality is not a football game.  The analogy itself is profoundly trivialising and demeaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26477</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26477</guid>
		<description>@Emproph - &quot;Because clearly, the Yes On 8 campaign had the “advantage” of not only lying their a**es off, but of lying about an already hated minority.&quot;


They also have the advantage that many people will assume they are being honest because they are supposedly Christian. Seriously, compare how many Americans who think that Christian leaders intentionally attempt to deceive people with those who think that Christians attempt to be honest in their dealings. It&#039;s why we have to shout from the rooftops with clear examples of their deception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Emproph &#8211; &#8220;Because clearly, the Yes On 8 campaign had the “advantage” of not only lying their a**es off, but of lying about an already hated minority.&#8221;</p>
<p>They also have the advantage that many people will assume they are being honest because they are supposedly Christian. Seriously, compare how many Americans who think that Christian leaders intentionally attempt to deceive people with those who think that Christians attempt to be honest in their dealings. It&#8217;s why we have to shout from the rooftops with clear examples of their deception.</p>
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		<title>By: Emproph</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26459</link>
		<dc:creator>Emproph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26459</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;“People will be asked if they trust the Mormons and want to give the Mormons more power by supporting these campaigns.”&lt;/I&gt;

Ahh…the H&amp;R Block tact. &lt;I&gt;“When Mormons speak, everybody listens.”&lt;/I&gt;

So what’s next? Imprisonment, or death, or death by imprisonment?

Lovely to know that they’ll hold that weight...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>“People will be asked if they trust the Mormons and want to give the Mormons more power by supporting these campaigns.”</i></p>
<p>Ahh…the H&amp;R Block tact. <i>“When Mormons speak, everybody listens.”</i></p>
<p>So what’s next? Imprisonment, or death, or death by imprisonment?</p>
<p>Lovely to know that they’ll hold that weight&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26449</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26449</guid>
		<description>Emproph

The Mormons are also a hated minority, and they know that in future battles they we be front and center in all campaigns.  People will be asked if they trust the Mormons and want to give the Mormons more power by supporting these campaigns.  This issue will be particularly important and ugly if the Mormons go after the CA Supreme Court.  All this Mormon whining about fallout from their Prop 8 actions is the surest indication that we are being effective.

As for Timothy&#039;s concern about focusing too much on the Mormons, whether fair or not (and I consider it fair) we will need to be able to put a face on the bigotted forces we face.  The Mormons are a particularly good target given general ill at ease feelings toward this church and suspicions about their motives and goals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emproph</p>
<p>The Mormons are also a hated minority, and they know that in future battles they we be front and center in all campaigns.  People will be asked if they trust the Mormons and want to give the Mormons more power by supporting these campaigns.  This issue will be particularly important and ugly if the Mormons go after the CA Supreme Court.  All this Mormon whining about fallout from their Prop 8 actions is the surest indication that we are being effective.</p>
<p>As for Timothy&#8217;s concern about focusing too much on the Mormons, whether fair or not (and I consider it fair) we will need to be able to put a face on the bigotted forces we face.  The Mormons are a particularly good target given general ill at ease feelings toward this church and suspicions about their motives and goals.</p>
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		<title>By: Emproph</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26443</link>
		<dc:creator>Emproph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26443</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;[Evan] Wolfson sees the amendment(s) in terms of discrimination against gays who want to be married &lt;b&gt;while not seeing that the absence of such marriage amendments would be discrimination against not only those who prefer marriage to be defined between one man and one woman&lt;/b&gt;, but against untold numbers of children whose world would be greatly changed as a result.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

IOW, discrimination against those who “prefer” to discriminate.

I know it’s been a theme, but it continues to amaze me that these are actual adults making this argument, and in addition, thinking that this level of idiocy and malice is a superior situation in which to raise children. 

And out of curiosity - given the sports analogy - how would you measure (or assign?) handicap in this situation? Because clearly, the Yes On 8 campaign had the “advantage” of not only lying their a**es off, but of lying about an already hated minority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>[Evan] Wolfson sees the amendment(s) in terms of discrimination against gays who want to be married <b>while not seeing that the absence of such marriage amendments would be discrimination against not only those who prefer marriage to be defined between one man and one woman</b>, but against untold numbers of children whose world would be greatly changed as a result.</p></blockquote>
<p>IOW, discrimination against those who “prefer” to discriminate.</p>
<p>I know it’s been a theme, but it continues to amaze me that these are actual adults making this argument, and in addition, thinking that this level of idiocy and malice is a superior situation in which to raise children. </p>
<p>And out of curiosity &#8211; given the sports analogy &#8211; how would you measure (or assign?) handicap in this situation? Because clearly, the Yes On 8 campaign had the “advantage” of not only lying their a**es off, but of lying about an already hated minority.</p>
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		<title>By: David C.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26431</link>
		<dc:creator>David C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 02:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26431</guid>
		<description>I can well understand your outrage, Timothy.

If this were a football game, the refs would call an &lt;i&gt;Unsportsmanlike Conduct--Illegal Celebration&lt;/i&gt; penalty against the LDS team, though I don&#039;t think there is a penalty for lying in football.

The enemies of Gay Rights have had good seasons over the last 8 years.  Their timing brought them a lot of victories, culminating in the bittersweet 2008 elections, coming as they did after eight years of Bush.  They have been able to sustain this drive because of their puppet in the White House and our ineffective defense.  We keep losing because our offense has barely been in possession of the ball.    

We must find courage and patience to work through these inevitable setbacks, rearming, rebuilding, and supporting our own political forces to take back what is rightfully and morally ours.   We know that the Obama administration and the democratically controlled congress must move slowly on gay issues, at least at first, or run the risk of alienating enough voters to loose their majority in one or both houses, or possibly even a second Obama term.  Besides, their hands are very full, and nether the world nor US relationships with other countries are in the greatest of shape.  We may need to take a step back and sublimate our own causes long enough for the situation to stabilize and our country to rebound while we rebuild our political influence.  Even though there was an electoral &quot;landslide&quot;, the popular vote margins were much smaller than any progressive or liberal should be comfortable with.

This &lt;b&gt;does not&lt;/b&gt; mean we should completely remove the pressure on our Democratic allies to do something to redress the plight of gay people in the United States, but we must find a sustainable way that helps gay-friendly leaders to be successful on our behalf.  That means political success &lt;i&gt;in the large&lt;/i&gt;, not just in the courts, but all three branches of government and the governed, and though that may take more time than we want in the near-term, it will pay off in the mid- and long-term.

This is not the first time religious fervor has repressed a minority, and it is unlikely to be the last.  We can win in the long run, but it will take patience and careful organization to meet the challenge of those that confound, conflate, and twist the truth in the interest of advancing hate in the name of their conditional &quot;love.&quot;  One of our strategies in the battle for hearts and minds has to be shining a light on tactics the LDS and others of their ilk use to vilify and denigrate gay people in this country and elsewhere.  No lie, distortion, liable, or slander against a gay person or organization should go unchallenged.  We need to define the vocabulary, and appropriate the terminology of our detractors if necessary, to expose their hypocrisy.  

We may need to move our positions on some things to achieve our end.  And while that may be a little hard to contemplate just now, it is a reality of the political battles ahead of us.  We will not undo or neutralize all the influences of religion on this country.  We can compete in the marketplace of ideas and belief if we do not alienate our nascent allies with shrill vitriol or violence.  Rarely do minorities achieve victory alone.  By forging new alliances, including those with faith communities that support a vision of universal love and acceptance, we can turn back the forces of misunderstanding and ignorant prejudice.

We have to get smarter, too.  We need to understand the central themes of the arguments used to marginalize and isolate gay people in this country and throughout time.  We need to dig back in history for those illuminating events and historical moments that will inform our perspectives and guide our judgement.  Marching, carrying a placard, shouting, voting, all these things are the necessary signs of activism but are not guarantors of changing anything.  We must know what is wrong, how it is wrong, how it came about being wrong, who is behind the wrong, and be ready to explain to every citizen of this country how to right that wrong.

The time for complacency is over, and if gay people truly want their freedom, they will have to earn it with intellect, sweat, and quite possibly even more blood than they have already shed.  We should never seek to gain our freedom by violence, but we must be ready to stand firm against tyranny, from wherever it may come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can well understand your outrage, Timothy.</p>
<p>If this were a football game, the refs would call an <i>Unsportsmanlike Conduct&#8211;Illegal Celebration</i> penalty against the LDS team, though I don&#8217;t think there is a penalty for lying in football.</p>
<p>The enemies of Gay Rights have had good seasons over the last 8 years.  Their timing brought them a lot of victories, culminating in the bittersweet 2008 elections, coming as they did after eight years of Bush.  They have been able to sustain this drive because of their puppet in the White House and our ineffective defense.  We keep losing because our offense has barely been in possession of the ball.    </p>
<p>We must find courage and patience to work through these inevitable setbacks, rearming, rebuilding, and supporting our own political forces to take back what is rightfully and morally ours.   We know that the Obama administration and the democratically controlled congress must move slowly on gay issues, at least at first, or run the risk of alienating enough voters to loose their majority in one or both houses, or possibly even a second Obama term.  Besides, their hands are very full, and nether the world nor US relationships with other countries are in the greatest of shape.  We may need to take a step back and sublimate our own causes long enough for the situation to stabilize and our country to rebound while we rebuild our political influence.  Even though there was an electoral &#8220;landslide&#8221;, the popular vote margins were much smaller than any progressive or liberal should be comfortable with.</p>
<p>This <b>does not</b> mean we should completely remove the pressure on our Democratic allies to do something to redress the plight of gay people in the United States, but we must find a sustainable way that helps gay-friendly leaders to be successful on our behalf.  That means political success <i>in the large</i>, not just in the courts, but all three branches of government and the governed, and though that may take more time than we want in the near-term, it will pay off in the mid- and long-term.</p>
<p>This is not the first time religious fervor has repressed a minority, and it is unlikely to be the last.  We can win in the long run, but it will take patience and careful organization to meet the challenge of those that confound, conflate, and twist the truth in the interest of advancing hate in the name of their conditional &#8220;love.&#8221;  One of our strategies in the battle for hearts and minds has to be shining a light on tactics the LDS and others of their ilk use to vilify and denigrate gay people in this country and elsewhere.  No lie, distortion, liable, or slander against a gay person or organization should go unchallenged.  We need to define the vocabulary, and appropriate the terminology of our detractors if necessary, to expose their hypocrisy.  </p>
<p>We may need to move our positions on some things to achieve our end.  And while that may be a little hard to contemplate just now, it is a reality of the political battles ahead of us.  We will not undo or neutralize all the influences of religion on this country.  We can compete in the marketplace of ideas and belief if we do not alienate our nascent allies with shrill vitriol or violence.  Rarely do minorities achieve victory alone.  By forging new alliances, including those with faith communities that support a vision of universal love and acceptance, we can turn back the forces of misunderstanding and ignorant prejudice.</p>
<p>We have to get smarter, too.  We need to understand the central themes of the arguments used to marginalize and isolate gay people in this country and throughout time.  We need to dig back in history for those illuminating events and historical moments that will inform our perspectives and guide our judgement.  Marching, carrying a placard, shouting, voting, all these things are the necessary signs of activism but are not guarantors of changing anything.  We must know what is wrong, how it is wrong, how it came about being wrong, who is behind the wrong, and be ready to explain to every citizen of this country how to right that wrong.</p>
<p>The time for complacency is over, and if gay people truly want their freedom, they will have to earn it with intellect, sweat, and quite possibly even more blood than they have already shed.  We should never seek to gain our freedom by violence, but we must be ready to stand firm against tyranny, from wherever it may come.</p>
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		<title>By: Ephilei</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26414</link>
		<dc:creator>Ephilei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26414</guid>
		<description>A better analogy would be that our team has had an awful season, with only two wins. But each game we&#039;re losing by smaller and smaller margins with our California game only down by 3 points. Seeing how we can&#039;t but improve and our opponents&#039; players keep aging out and booed off by fans. It&#039;s true we&#039;ve lost most games so far, but the games are getting closer and closer. The four this year we barely lost and I wouldn&#039;t want to miss a minute of the next few.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A better analogy would be that our team has had an awful season, with only two wins. But each game we&#8217;re losing by smaller and smaller margins with our California game only down by 3 points. Seeing how we can&#8217;t but improve and our opponents&#8217; players keep aging out and booed off by fans. It&#8217;s true we&#8217;ve lost most games so far, but the games are getting closer and closer. The four this year we barely lost and I wouldn&#8217;t want to miss a minute of the next few.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26412</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26412</guid>
		<description>Never mind, I read the full article.  He&#039;s just adding all the bigot votes throughout the country.  I love the last bit, claiming that gay marriage is &quot;discrimination&quot; against people who don&#039;t think gays should be allowed to get married.  Someone needs a dictionary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Never mind, I read the full article.  He&#8217;s just adding all the bigot votes throughout the country.  I love the last bit, claiming that gay marriage is &#8220;discrimination&#8221; against people who don&#8217;t think gays should be allowed to get married.  Someone needs a dictionary.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/01/7018/comment-page-1#comment-26411</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7018#comment-26411</guid>
		<description>Wait, so they&#039;re adding the votes for prop 22 together with the votes for prop 8 and saying that&#039;s how many people are against gay marriage?  B Are you kidding me?  Is the writer really that stupid, or does he think that his readers are?  The truth is that anti-gay voters went from 61% to 52% in 8 years.  The &quot;score&quot; is officially a nail-biter.  Just another example of the inherit dishonesty of the Religious Right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, so they&#8217;re adding the votes for prop 22 together with the votes for prop 8 and saying that&#8217;s how many people are against gay marriage?  B Are you kidding me?  Is the writer really that stupid, or does he think that his readers are?  The truth is that anti-gay voters went from 61% to 52% in 8 years.  The &#8220;score&#8221; is officially a nail-biter.  Just another example of the inherit dishonesty of the Religious Right.</p>
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