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	<title>Comments on: Our Place in the Democratic Party Minority Coalition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Ephilei</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26882</link>
		<dc:creator>Ephilei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 22:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26882</guid>
		<description>The problem with coalitions is that members join because they get something out of it, not because they&#039;re loyal to its foundation. I support often democrats because I&#039;m transgender, but I will never support abortion and I don&#039;t feel I&#039;m a hypocrite for doing so.

Gays aren&#039;t last. There are smaller minorities that are so far behind they&#039;re not even mentioned.

There are ways around this problem. 1) Go to the federal level. 2) Ignore same-sex marriage but eliminate marriage from the books and enact civil unions for every New Yorker; let couples decide if they&#039;re union is marriage or not. 3) Eliminate sex from the books. If the state does not recognize you as female or male, they cannot discriminate against you in anyway. 2 and 3 are far too libertarian to swallow, but they&#039;d work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with coalitions is that members join because they get something out of it, not because they&#8217;re loyal to its foundation. I support often democrats because I&#8217;m transgender, but I will never support abortion and I don&#8217;t feel I&#8217;m a hypocrite for doing so.</p>
<p>Gays aren&#8217;t last. There are smaller minorities that are so far behind they&#8217;re not even mentioned.</p>
<p>There are ways around this problem. 1) Go to the federal level. 2) Ignore same-sex marriage but eliminate marriage from the books and enact civil unions for every New Yorker; let couples decide if they&#8217;re union is marriage or not. 3) Eliminate sex from the books. If the state does not recognize you as female or male, they cannot discriminate against you in anyway. 2 and 3 are far too libertarian to swallow, but they&#8217;d work.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26881</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 22:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26881</guid>
		<description>There are already a couple of Facebook groups getting started. And one is organizing a protest on Christmas day at Diaz&#039;s office.  

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=46163031097

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=39366464226</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are already a couple of Facebook groups getting started. And one is organizing a protest on Christmas day at Diaz&#8217;s office.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=46163031097" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=46163031097</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=39366464226" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=39366464226</a></p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26873</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 20:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26873</guid>
		<description>You know, we actually need to do something about this.  It infuriates me that this one, petty man is able to use our families to further his career.  We need to organize something to hold him accountable and to make the Senate Democrats miserable until they change course.  State legislators never get the sort of attention national politicians get from constituents and they wouldn&#039;t know what hit them if we were able to raise a real protest like we did in the wake of Prop 8.  If we make this a big enough issue, we can force them to take up our rights.  We can&#039;t let little Ruben Diaz screw us around like this.  I nominate this website to start promoting a massive protest, letter writing, and phone call campaign -- or something even more impactful if you can think of it.  This isn&#039;t the sort of thing we should just resign ourselves to, we should fight this bastard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, we actually need to do something about this.  It infuriates me that this one, petty man is able to use our families to further his career.  We need to organize something to hold him accountable and to make the Senate Democrats miserable until they change course.  State legislators never get the sort of attention national politicians get from constituents and they wouldn&#8217;t know what hit them if we were able to raise a real protest like we did in the wake of Prop 8.  If we make this a big enough issue, we can force them to take up our rights.  We can&#8217;t let little Ruben Diaz screw us around like this.  I nominate this website to start promoting a massive protest, letter writing, and phone call campaign &#8212; or something even more impactful if you can think of it.  This isn&#8217;t the sort of thing we should just resign ourselves to, we should fight this bastard.</p>
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		<title>By: cd</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26825</link>
		<dc:creator>cd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 07:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26825</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If they don’t a libertarian faction may raise in the Republican party in the next 10-20 years&lt;/i&gt;

At this point there is no faction of the Republican Party that harbors any love for Section 1 of the 14th Amendment.  That shared stance is (pretty much) what unites and defines Republicans constitutionwise.

The history so far is that around 1995 the Hawai’i efforts got Democratic liberals on board for gay marriage/civil unions.  Vermont in 2000 led to the Democratic Left faction coming on board.  Massachusetts persuaded moderate Democrats in 2005.

Now it’s a fight for the support of centrists and it is at least partly tied to California’s legalization and (?)delegalization in 2008.  I’m watching pollings to see if by itself that will do it; often it takes two big affairs and a couple of years of backlash effects/fadeout to win that very big bloc over on Culture War issues.  (Maybe a Californian referendum vote in 2010 is the second event.  Quien sabe.)  But when the centrists tip to the liberal side, the conservative side has to retreat to deeply Red states.

Winning over moderate Republicans to support of the liberal-associated point of view is when a supermajority is formed and Culture War issues end.  (Things like no fault divorce and school prayer iirc have reached that point.)  Usually some Right factional leader will decide to go over and his following then gets very quiet about the issue before then.  Eventually some significant social conservative (aka Religious Right) person will do so too.  And then suddenly people seem conveniently not to really remember things ever having been different.

All the loud conservative claims about the evil of divorce and it being the province of dissolute liberals became a murmur when Reagan became the Republican nominee in 1980.  When Tammy Faye Baker divorced Jim Baker in iirc 1986 the silence about divorce became deafening.  And Religious Right people have since pretended their heated and hypocritical rhetoric about divorce never happened.

So keep a good eye on Mary Cheney and her parents longterm but keep very silent.  Be nice to her.  Sooner or later she is going to muster the courage and marry her partner and her parents are going to show up for it.  And suddenly a chunk of the Right is going to go as dumb as fish about gay marriage.  And sometime after that some major Religious Right leader’s kid is going to do it too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If they don’t a libertarian faction may raise in the Republican party in the next 10-20 years</i></p>
<p>At this point there is no faction of the Republican Party that harbors any love for Section 1 of the 14th Amendment.  That shared stance is (pretty much) what unites and defines Republicans constitutionwise.</p>
<p>The history so far is that around 1995 the Hawai’i efforts got Democratic liberals on board for gay marriage/civil unions.  Vermont in 2000 led to the Democratic Left faction coming on board.  Massachusetts persuaded moderate Democrats in 2005.</p>
<p>Now it’s a fight for the support of centrists and it is at least partly tied to California’s legalization and (?)delegalization in 2008.  I’m watching pollings to see if by itself that will do it; often it takes two big affairs and a couple of years of backlash effects/fadeout to win that very big bloc over on Culture War issues.  (Maybe a Californian referendum vote in 2010 is the second event.  Quien sabe.)  But when the centrists tip to the liberal side, the conservative side has to retreat to deeply Red states.</p>
<p>Winning over moderate Republicans to support of the liberal-associated point of view is when a supermajority is formed and Culture War issues end.  (Things like no fault divorce and school prayer iirc have reached that point.)  Usually some Right factional leader will decide to go over and his following then gets very quiet about the issue before then.  Eventually some significant social conservative (aka Religious Right) person will do so too.  And then suddenly people seem conveniently not to really remember things ever having been different.</p>
<p>All the loud conservative claims about the evil of divorce and it being the province of dissolute liberals became a murmur when Reagan became the Republican nominee in 1980.  When Tammy Faye Baker divorced Jim Baker in iirc 1986 the silence about divorce became deafening.  And Religious Right people have since pretended their heated and hypocritical rhetoric about divorce never happened.</p>
<p>So keep a good eye on Mary Cheney and her parents longterm but keep very silent.  Be nice to her.  Sooner or later she is going to muster the courage and marry her partner and her parents are going to show up for it.  And suddenly a chunk of the Right is going to go as dumb as fish about gay marriage.  And sometime after that some major Religious Right leader’s kid is going to do it too.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26817</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 05:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26817</guid>
		<description>This is exactly the reason I no longer financially support the Democrats.  I only give money to gay groups and gay politicians, or politicians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is exactly the reason I no longer financially support the Democrats.  I only give money to gay groups and gay politicians, or politicians.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26816</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 04:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26816</guid>
		<description>I can only hope the Democrats get their act together soon about the equal rights battle of our generation.  If they don&#039;t a libertarian faction may raise in the Republican party in the next 10-20 years and win the solid support of the up-and-coming generation that simply wants rights for their friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can only hope the Democrats get their act together soon about the equal rights battle of our generation.  If they don&#8217;t a libertarian faction may raise in the Republican party in the next 10-20 years and win the solid support of the up-and-coming generation that simply wants rights for their friends.</p>
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		<title>By: cd</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26813</link>
		<dc:creator>cd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 04:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26813</guid>
		<description>As far as I have been able to put it together, from sites like thealbanyproject.com, the math in the NY state Senate goes something like this:

1.  New York state government has more than enough to do with more basic problems during the next year: their budget, cleaning up government, lots of management issues.

2. The expectation is of several more Republican state Senators resigning or giving up on running for reelection during the next couple of months.  For reasons of age, lack of control, ethics problems, and inability to deliver the mandatory amount of pork.  But that takes a united Democratic majority that deprives them of pork, victories, and exposes them.

3.   The state Assembly and governor will easily pass/sign a gay marriage legalization bill.  There arent the votes for it there in the state Senate without a lot of wheeling, dealing, and armtwisting to gain four or five.  What Senate Republicans will do is try to bargain out as much of a reprieve for their votes as possible.

4.  Prop.8 fallout or backlash has to subside and the polling numbers settle in NY before the political math is clear enough for the state Senate Democratic leadership.

For Maryland, the state simply is not more liberal than California.  This fellow’s obstructionism (like Schwarzenegger’s) is a good cover for the Maryland legislature to wait and do nothing until the polling numbers improve to where the equivalent of Prop 8 won’t pass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as I have been able to put it together, from sites like thealbanyproject.com, the math in the NY state Senate goes something like this:</p>
<p>1.  New York state government has more than enough to do with more basic problems during the next year: their budget, cleaning up government, lots of management issues.</p>
<p>2. The expectation is of several more Republican state Senators resigning or giving up on running for reelection during the next couple of months.  For reasons of age, lack of control, ethics problems, and inability to deliver the mandatory amount of pork.  But that takes a united Democratic majority that deprives them of pork, victories, and exposes them.</p>
<p>3.   The state Assembly and governor will easily pass/sign a gay marriage legalization bill.  There arent the votes for it there in the state Senate without a lot of wheeling, dealing, and armtwisting to gain four or five.  What Senate Republicans will do is try to bargain out as much of a reprieve for their votes as possible.</p>
<p>4.  Prop.8 fallout or backlash has to subside and the polling numbers settle in NY before the political math is clear enough for the state Senate Democratic leadership.</p>
<p>For Maryland, the state simply is not more liberal than California.  This fellow’s obstructionism (like Schwarzenegger’s) is a good cover for the Maryland legislature to wait and do nothing until the polling numbers improve to where the equivalent of Prop 8 won’t pass.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26803</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26803</guid>
		<description>Cooner, 

check out the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/11/06/5957&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link to the earlier article&lt;/a&gt;.  Their majority is that tenuous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cooner, </p>
<p>check out the <a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/11/06/5957" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">link to the earlier article</a>.  Their majority is that tenuous.</p>
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		<title>By: cooner</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26802</link>
		<dc:creator>cooner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26802</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not up on New York politics ... how does a cluster of three senators hold this much power over leadership? Is the Senate that small? Or is their majority that tenuous?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not up on New York politics &#8230; how does a cluster of three senators hold this much power over leadership? Is the Senate that small? Or is their majority that tenuous?</p>
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		<title>By: David C.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/05/7096/comment-page-1#comment-26798</link>
		<dc:creator>David C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7096#comment-26798</guid>
		<description>Forget the damn states.

Time to amend the &lt;b&gt;federal&lt;/b&gt; Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include LGBT people, and then it&#039;s &quot;game over&quot; for all the damn fool little demagogues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forget the damn states.</p>
<p>Time to amend the <b>federal</b> Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include LGBT people, and then it&#8217;s &#8220;game over&#8221; for all the damn fool little demagogues.</p>
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