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	<title>Comments on: A Patronizing &#8220;Pastoral Message&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Ken R</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-27034</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 03:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-27034</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The Cardinal’s job is to preach the Gospel. He is mandated to speak the Truth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree. But the Catholic Church from what I have read over the centuries has lied, tortured, and waged wars all in the name of that &quot;Truth&quot; you believe they espouse El Rose. Man-made doctrines, legalism, and perfectionism has trumped the Grace given freely by God for all believers. 

I used to be a faithful practicing Catholic and a defender of the Church. No longer. I have come to realize that the Church is the people of God and not a rigid and self-righteous religious institution. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;When the Truth conflicts with your behavior, you need to examine your behavior.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This &quot;Truth&quot; I always hear about is almost laughable. And I&#039;m not ridiculing Christianity at all. Really I am not. I&#039;m a Christian myself. What  I am laughing at is that this &quot;Truth&quot; that each Christian denomination claims to hold are so vastly different from one another it boggles my mind when people say &quot;Truth&quot; when they preach to others. They always claim to have &quot;THE TRUTH&quot;.  

So I&#039;m always asking people which &quot;Truth&quot;? Catholic Church? Evangelical Christian? Fundamentalist Christian? Whose &quot;Truth&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The Cardinal’s job is to preach the Gospel. He is mandated to speak the Truth.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree. But the Catholic Church from what I have read over the centuries has lied, tortured, and waged wars all in the name of that &#8220;Truth&#8221; you believe they espouse El Rose. Man-made doctrines, legalism, and perfectionism has trumped the Grace given freely by God for all believers. </p>
<p>I used to be a faithful practicing Catholic and a defender of the Church. No longer. I have come to realize that the Church is the people of God and not a rigid and self-righteous religious institution. </p>
<blockquote><p>When the Truth conflicts with your behavior, you need to examine your behavior.</p></blockquote>
<p>This &#8220;Truth&#8221; I always hear about is almost laughable. And I&#8217;m not ridiculing Christianity at all. Really I am not. I&#8217;m a Christian myself. What  I am laughing at is that this &#8220;Truth&#8221; that each Christian denomination claims to hold are so vastly different from one another it boggles my mind when people say &#8220;Truth&#8221; when they preach to others. They always claim to have &#8220;THE TRUTH&#8221;.  </p>
<p>So I&#8217;m always asking people which &#8220;Truth&#8221;? Catholic Church? Evangelical Christian? Fundamentalist Christian? Whose &#8220;Truth&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26999</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26999</guid>
		<description>CPT_Doom,
I don&#039;t disagree with you, but it sounds like you&#039;re doing exactly what I described: telling this man how he ought to be Catholic on your terms.  

Catholicisim isn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;about&lt;/i&gt; making sense. It&#039;s not about being logically consistent.  It&#039;s not just a faith or a congregation, the way that many Christian churches are. It&#039;s a membership organization with a list of required beliefs a mile long.  

Each Catholic, of course, has their own individual conscience. But it seems silly for people outside the faith to try to interpret what Catholics &lt;i&gt;ought&lt;/i&gt;  to believe.  (It&#039;s like pointing out inconsistencies in the beliefs of the Heaven&#039;s Gate cult.  A better solution is to _stop_ being a member, not to change the kind of Nikes you wear to meet the magical comet-God.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CPT_Doom,<br />
I don&#8217;t disagree with you, but it sounds like you&#8217;re doing exactly what I described: telling this man how he ought to be Catholic on your terms.  </p>
<p>Catholicisim isn&#8217;t <i>about</i> making sense. It&#8217;s not about being logically consistent.  It&#8217;s not just a faith or a congregation, the way that many Christian churches are. It&#8217;s a membership organization with a list of required beliefs a mile long.  </p>
<p>Each Catholic, of course, has their own individual conscience. But it seems silly for people outside the faith to try to interpret what Catholics <i>ought</i>  to believe.  (It&#8217;s like pointing out inconsistencies in the beliefs of the Heaven&#8217;s Gate cult.  A better solution is to _stop_ being a member, not to change the kind of Nikes you wear to meet the magical comet-God.)</p>
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		<title>By: CPT_Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26982</link>
		<dc:creator>CPT_Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 16:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26982</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I agree that Mahony is condescending, bigoted, and, well, wrong. But why call him out on having absolute certainty about how things should be?

That’s what Catholicism is. It’s not a religion based on questioning assumptions. Suggesting that a Catholic Bishop ought not express certainty about the things he’s required to believe is, essentially, suggesting that he not be Catholic. 

Which is fine. I happen to think that Catholics should stop being Catholic. But it just seems silly to suggest that Catholics ought to be Catholic on your terms.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Phil, it is true that Mahony is required to believe the only valid marrigaes are those that follow that Roman Catholic model, but it is completely warranted to point out Mahony&#039;s hypocrisy on this matter. That is because there are many other types of legal marriage, including the relationship enjoyed by the recent GOP nominee for President, that fail to meet the Roman Catholic ideal, yet Mahony would never support a referendum to take away the marriage rights of divorced people. Mahony is guilty of violating his own religious beliefs by singling out one type of sexual sin as being more worthy of social control than other equally sinful behaviors (people like Tom Brady, who is raising a child with a Babymama). 

Not only does Mahony violate the Catholic teaching that all sexual sin (any sex outside of a Roman Catholic marriage) is equally wrong, he and the head of the SF diocese could also have violated their religious belief system by working with the Mormons, a religious sect considered to be a &quot;psuedo-Christian cult&quot; in the Catholic theology. If it is wrong for Catholics to vote for pro-choice politicians, as many Roman Catholic clerics claim, then it must be even worse for a Bishop to legitimize a cult in the way both the LA and SF diocese leaders have done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I agree that Mahony is condescending, bigoted, and, well, wrong. But why call him out on having absolute certainty about how things should be?</p>
<p>That’s what Catholicism is. It’s not a religion based on questioning assumptions. Suggesting that a Catholic Bishop ought not express certainty about the things he’s required to believe is, essentially, suggesting that he not be Catholic. </p>
<p>Which is fine. I happen to think that Catholics should stop being Catholic. But it just seems silly to suggest that Catholics ought to be Catholic on your terms.</p></blockquote>
<p>Phil, it is true that Mahony is required to believe the only valid marrigaes are those that follow that Roman Catholic model, but it is completely warranted to point out Mahony&#8217;s hypocrisy on this matter. That is because there are many other types of legal marriage, including the relationship enjoyed by the recent GOP nominee for President, that fail to meet the Roman Catholic ideal, yet Mahony would never support a referendum to take away the marriage rights of divorced people. Mahony is guilty of violating his own religious beliefs by singling out one type of sexual sin as being more worthy of social control than other equally sinful behaviors (people like Tom Brady, who is raising a child with a Babymama). </p>
<p>Not only does Mahony violate the Catholic teaching that all sexual sin (any sex outside of a Roman Catholic marriage) is equally wrong, he and the head of the SF diocese could also have violated their religious belief system by working with the Mormons, a religious sect considered to be a &#8220;psuedo-Christian cult&#8221; in the Catholic theology. If it is wrong for Catholics to vote for pro-choice politicians, as many Roman Catholic clerics claim, then it must be even worse for a Bishop to legitimize a cult in the way both the LA and SF diocese leaders have done.</p>
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		<title>By: El Rose</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26979</link>
		<dc:creator>El Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26979</guid>
		<description>The Cardinal&#039;s job is to preach the Gospel. He is mandated to speak the Truth. 

When the Truth conflicts with your behavior, you need to examine your behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Cardinal&#8217;s job is to preach the Gospel. He is mandated to speak the Truth. </p>
<p>When the Truth conflicts with your behavior, you need to examine your behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26961</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 05:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26961</guid>
		<description>Can you believe the new action to the bishops of California? 
I just need to send you and everyone you know this invitation to join in the WHITE CHRISTMAS campaign. It is simply a message to the Catholic Church to stop using underhanded techniques to manipulate their member’s political views, and to respect members for who they are and not how they want them to be. (see at www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com) 

In late June 2008, Catholic parishes around the country announced a new campaign. Its call: to “educate Catholics in politics”! This campaign started immediately, and it was very successful as evidenced by the organization of the campaign to pass of Prop 8, a discrimination amendment to the California constitution which banned marriages between two individuals of the same sex. The Catholic Church, with the Mormon Church, spent over $40M to pass California Prop. 8. 

In mass, we were literally asked to pray that marriage be allowed for only a man and a woman. And at a Catholic school by Mountain View, signs advocating Yes on 8 were placed in the school yards for kids and parents to see as kids were picked up. 

Is this what church is about?! 

This is why you need to know about the White Christmas campaign. This Christmas, the lay members can s end the Catholic Church a clear message to stop using church donation money to support political agendas by holding back their your Christmas donation. 

This is how the plan would work: 
-1- Withhold your Christmas donation and instead, place in the collection basket an empty white envelope with the words “WHITE CHRISTMAS” on it. 
-2- Insert a brief note in the envelope on your reason for this WHITE CHRISTMAS zero offering. For example: The Catholic Church needs not to divide but unite, please stay out of defining marriage, or No to politics in the Church.
That’s it.

This year, please redirect your normal Christmas donation to other non-profit organizations, groups like Doctors-Without-Borders, your local Food Bank, youth education groups, etc. (see listing at http://www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com/redirect_donation.html). Many charities need your help especially during these hard economic times. They will truly appreciate your gifts for improving this world with your WHITE CHRISTMAS contribution. 

Please visit www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com and love your church enough to fight for it and reclaim it this Christmas for you and for everyone.

Blessings,
Pierre 

NOTES: 
- If you haven’t been in church for a while, you can still participate by going to your closest parish on Christmas day to pray for a new start in your Church, and then placing a note in your WHITE CHRISTMAS envelope with the reason you haven’t been attending. 
- If you receive direct mail fundraising from the Catholic church, respond with check for $0.00 and a brief explanation for participating in WHITE CHRISTMAS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you believe the new action to the bishops of California?<br />
I just need to send you and everyone you know this invitation to join in the WHITE CHRISTMAS campaign. It is simply a message to the Catholic Church to stop using underhanded techniques to manipulate their member’s political views, and to respect members for who they are and not how they want them to be. (see at <a href="http://www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com</a>) </p>
<p>In late June 2008, Catholic parishes around the country announced a new campaign. Its call: to “educate Catholics in politics”! This campaign started immediately, and it was very successful as evidenced by the organization of the campaign to pass of Prop 8, a discrimination amendment to the California constitution which banned marriages between two individuals of the same sex. The Catholic Church, with the Mormon Church, spent over $40M to pass California Prop. 8. </p>
<p>In mass, we were literally asked to pray that marriage be allowed for only a man and a woman. And at a Catholic school by Mountain View, signs advocating Yes on 8 were placed in the school yards for kids and parents to see as kids were picked up. </p>
<p>Is this what church is about?! </p>
<p>This is why you need to know about the White Christmas campaign. This Christmas, the lay members can s end the Catholic Church a clear message to stop using church donation money to support political agendas by holding back their your Christmas donation. </p>
<p>This is how the plan would work:<br />
-1- Withhold your Christmas donation and instead, place in the collection basket an empty white envelope with the words “WHITE CHRISTMAS” on it.<br />
-2- Insert a brief note in the envelope on your reason for this WHITE CHRISTMAS zero offering. For example: The Catholic Church needs not to divide but unite, please stay out of defining marriage, or No to politics in the Church.<br />
That’s it.</p>
<p>This year, please redirect your normal Christmas donation to other non-profit organizations, groups like Doctors-Without-Borders, your local Food Bank, youth education groups, etc. (see listing at <a href="http://www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com/redirect_donation.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com/redirect_donation.html</a>). Many charities need your help especially during these hard economic times. They will truly appreciate your gifts for improving this world with your WHITE CHRISTMAS contribution. </p>
<p>Please visit <a href="http://www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.whitechristmascampaign.citymax.com</a> and love your church enough to fight for it and reclaim it this Christmas for you and for everyone.</p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Pierre </p>
<p>NOTES:<br />
- If you haven’t been in church for a while, you can still participate by going to your closest parish on Christmas day to pray for a new start in your Church, and then placing a note in your WHITE CHRISTMAS envelope with the reason you haven’t been attending.<br />
- If you receive direct mail fundraising from the Catholic church, respond with check for $0.00 and a brief explanation for participating in WHITE CHRISTMAS.</p>
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		<title>By: cd</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26945</link>
		<dc:creator>cd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 23:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26945</guid>
		<description>It’s an insult, but the attitude of Catholic orthodox doctrine toward gay people simply is inherently that way.

All there is to say about it is: dinosaurs in our time die out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s an insult, but the attitude of Catholic orthodox doctrine toward gay people simply is inherently that way.</p>
<p>All there is to say about it is: dinosaurs in our time die out.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26942</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 23:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26942</guid>
		<description>Priya: I would add that it merely preserves heterosexual privilege</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya: I would add that it merely preserves heterosexual privilege</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26932</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26932</guid>
		<description>Mahony said &quot;This is most unfortunate since such strategies obscure the basic matter at issue: the preservation of the ordered relationship between man and woman created by God.&quot;.

These sorts of false claims are incredibly annoying.  Gay people getting married in no way affects anyone&#039;s ability to preserve the relationship between man and woman as they believe their god created it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mahony said &#8220;This is most unfortunate since such strategies obscure the basic matter at issue: the preservation of the ordered relationship between man and woman created by God.&#8221;.</p>
<p>These sorts of false claims are incredibly annoying.  Gay people getting married in no way affects anyone&#8217;s ability to preserve the relationship between man and woman as they believe their god created it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26924</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 15:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26924</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t be patronizing to someone if they&#039;re not around.  Gay Catholics deserves what they get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t be patronizing to someone if they&#8217;re not around.  Gay Catholics deserves what they get.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn David</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/06/7123/comment-page-1#comment-26917</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 08:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7123#comment-26917</guid>
		<description>Comment or request information about a position or statement by Cardinal Mahony or the Archdiocese
Please contact Media Relations at 
213 637 7215 or 
mediarelations@la-archdiocese.org.

Around and about my 50th birthday I left the Catholic Church which I grew up in, and at the same time I left all churches behind.  They&#039;re dinosaurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comment or request information about a position or statement by Cardinal Mahony or the Archdiocese<br />
Please contact Media Relations at<br />
213 637 7215 or<br />
<a href="mailto:mediarelations@la-archdiocese.org">mediarelations@la-archdiocese.org</a>.</p>
<p>Around and about my 50th birthday I left the Catholic Church which I grew up in, and at the same time I left all churches behind.  They&#8217;re dinosaurs.</p>
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