Box Turtle Bulletin

Again with the 5,000 years. Marriage has not been the same institution for 5,000 years, nor has it been the same across all cultures and belief systems. Although, if he wants to stick with this argument, he should include gay couples marrying in the ‘5,000 year-old’ definition of marriage.

“The first recorded use of the word “marriage” for the union of same-sex couples also occurs during the Roman Empire.” [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage]

Roman Empire: 44 BC â€“ AD 286.

There’s also the little matter of church-sanctioned same-sex unions from 500 to 1,500 AD, as discussed by John Boswell in his book ‘Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe.’ [http://www.ualberta.ca/~di/csh/csh12/Boswell.html]

So really, the ‘redefinition of marriage’ began when it excluded same-sex couples, not when it them.

Rick

Oops.

So really, the â€˜redefinition of marriageâ€™ began when it excluded same-sex couples, not when it INCLUDED them.

Timothy Kincaid

Kay and I have given millions of dollars out of â€œA Purpose-Driven Lifeâ€ helping people who got AIDS through gay relationships.

Really?

Through gay relationships?

I call BULLCRAP on that statement.

Regan DuCasse

“The Purpose Driven Phoniness that Enriched My Life So That I Could Equate Committed Gay Couples With Those Who Abuse Children, Betray Other Spouses and Sibling Relationships.”
That should be the title of his book and lectures.

What a PIG to say he has gay friends and then equate their lives that way.
They were NEVER his friends, nor they his…and he’s made that quite clear.

See what I mean by those people very secure in their human and civil rights access and protections?
Warren nor Marjorie had NO worries about losing those very things that are most important to the health of our body and spirit.

Love and family, marriage and fidelity.

They are quite willing to decide FOR gay people what makes for a happy life and they’ve decided that gay people can’t decide for themselves and don’t deserve THAT kind of happiness, it’s too much like infidelity and incest.

They really are insulting and someone needs to tell them so.

Regan DuCasse

I meant, see what I mean about people with unchallenged security in marriage and family, looking down their long noses at gay people as inferior and unworthy of benefitting or giving benefit with having the same choice to marry.

Assuming that there will be harm to it, is arrogant.
Asserting a 10% difference in the oft repeated divorce statistic still makes what he says they are much better.

That’s right, when you give with one hand and take away with the other…you leave NOTHING.
He’s done nothing for gay people and indeed, he’s hurt them by saying what he has about what their marriages are equivalent to.

lurker

I don’t think that Rick would be admitting to being friends with or eating dinner with someone who’s having sexual relations with a minor . . . it is not the moral equivant of someone in a mutually committed and loving couple and Rick knows it.

Ben in Oakland

When he says “gay friends”, I suspect he means ex-gay firends, or used to be gay but ain’t any more friends, or those who have “left the lifestyle”.

He doesn’t mean gay as in self-respecting gay man or woman who isn’t filled with selg hatred.

As humty dumpty put it so eloquently, “words mean what I say they mean. nothing more and nothing less.”

Lynn David

Uh… if you take a failure rate of 40 in 100 first marriages and then fail 60% of those 40 second marriages you get 24 failures, and then fail 75% of those 24 third marriages then you end up with 82 of 164 marriages failing. That’s 50% pastor. But I guess if you’re a true Christian you don’t call those second and third marriages failures because they weren’t true marriages… wait! Let’s ban getting marriage a second time! For Christian heterosexuals…. that is.

Tavdy

Rev. Warren used his pretext of â€œmany gay friendsâ€ and the work that Saddleback Church has done for â€people who got AID through gay relationshipsâ€ to say, â€œthey canâ€™t accuse me of homophobia.â€

I have to wonder how many of the men Saddleback has helped would still be alive and/or HIV-free if people like Rick Warren hadn’t opposed gay rights over the decades? After all, they have consistently actively encouraged the social alienation and subsequent risky sexual behaviours which helped spread HIV – and they’re continuing to do so even now.

Of course when you think about it the continued spread of HIV is in Rick Warren’s professional best interests – it ensures that gay men are seen as disease-ridden filth, and gives him a reason to continue promoting lies about us. It also gives him a way to be “nice” to gay men – by helping those infected with HIV.

There’s a painting by gay artist Steve Walker, called “The Kindness Of strangers”, that is a good illustration of the kind of relationship people like Rick Warren want with LGBTs. They want gay men to be subservient, weak and needy; they want to make gay men dependent upon them, because it reinforces the idea that their beliefs are the ones that are valid and true. HIV/AIDS is simply a means to an end for them.

Monogamous long-term same-sex relationships are a threat to people like Rick Warren as monogamy doesn’t encourage the spread of HIV – so they are bound to oppose anything that will encourage that kind of relationship, such as gay marriage. Why else do we so often hear “Christians” (I use the term loosely) saying they’re willing to “compromise” and allow relationship-strengthening things like hospital visitation rights, only to have the vociferously oppose them weeks or months later?

Nugget

His statements are a haunting reminder of the past. “I’m not a racist, plenty of my friends are black.”

Patrick

“Iâ€™m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. … Iâ€™m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.”

If you take the Bible literally, polygamous marriages have existed for 5000 years. Lamech (Genesis 4:19) is the first to be mentioned as having multiple wives and he lived long before the supposed flood. Why are so many evangelical leaders ignorant about the Bible?

—

“For five thousand years, marriage has been defined by every single culture and every single religion â€” this is not a Christian issue. Buddhists, Muslims, the Jews, historically marriage is a man and a woman.”

Simply not true – ask any cultural anthropologist. Why are so many evangelical leaders ignorant about the rest of the world?

Patrick

“People say, well half of marriages end in divorce. Thatâ€™s just not true. Forty percent of first-time marriages end in divorce. Forty percent. About 61% of second-time marriages end in divorce, and almost 75% of third-time marriages end in divorce. So the odds get worse, and whatâ€™s balancing this out when you hear 50% ends in divorce, itâ€™s just not true. The majority of marriages do last.”

So, at least half of marriages DO end in divorce, because 2nd and 3rd marriages are still marriages. When people talk about 50% of marriages they are not just focusing on 1st marriages, they are focusing on all marriages.

For the love of G-d would somebody please teach these people logic!

Timothy Kincaid

To give a small bit of balance:

Rick Warren’s church does offer AIDS assistance and doesn’t insist that the recipient “repent”.

Additionally, Warren, in the statements above, does suggest that he supports some rights for gay couples. He opposes marriage (and does so in highly offensive terms) but he seems to be saying in a round about way that he’s not opposed to some form of civil unions (or perhaps he’s speaking PC double speak).

So he’s not typical of the conservative evangelical movement. While we should unceasingly critize the frothing homophobia that is inherent in the comparison with incest and pedophilia, this does show a positive step.

As for his illogical math about divorce, I think I know what he’s saying.

I think Warren’s point is that while 50% of marriages may fail, that isn’t 50% of people who marry. 60% of those who marry succeed in their marriage the first time while some portion of the other 40% get it wrong multiple times. How he said it inaccurate.

And really is there some huge difference between 50% of all marriages or 40% of all (first time) marriages end in divorce? Both of those a pretty big numbers.

I used to live near that church.

Saddleback? Helping people with AIDS?

Please. They spend all of their money printing hateful yard signs. They encourage each other to put nails under the tires of people who refuse to attend their church. In the six years I had to put up with Saddleback members, I heard of not ONE charitable event hosted by them that wasn’t anti-something.

Rock Warren: not just a homophobe! A liar.

Timothy Kincaid

Can you please link to some support for those claims? Are there police reports about the nails or perhaps newspaper reports?

thanks

Mary-Lee

December 18th, 2008

“Additionally, Warren, in the statements above, does suggest that he supports some rights for gay couples. He opposes marriage (and does so in highly offensive terms) but he seems to be saying in a round about way that heâ€™s not opposed to some form of civil unions…”

So, Timothy Kincaid, are you saying that Rick Warren is like… just a little bit pregnant?

See, if people don’t have completely equal rights, they simply don’t have equal rights.

It may be fine, for purposes of debate, to try to lead Warren from the place where he is to the place he needs to get to, but when it comes to my rights or anyone else’s rights, there’s no room for any debate. We either have rights or we don’t.

Maurice Lacunza

December 18th, 2008

Righ on Mary-Lee. We either have rights, or, we do not. The gay community doesn’t have to “moderate” or “disagree”. We want what every other person has: EQUAL RIGHTS. PERIOD.

Timothy Kincaid

December 18th, 2008

Mary-Lee,

â€œAdditionally, Warren, in the statements above, does suggest that he supports some rights for gay couples. He opposes marriage (and does so in highly offensive terms) but he seems to be saying in a round about way that heâ€™s not opposed to some form of civil unionsâ€¦â€

So, Timothy Kincaid, are you saying that Rick Warren is likeâ€¦ just a little bit pregnant?

I’m saying that his positions (if he does support civil unions) are the same as Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and a whole host of others about whom you would probably not ask this question.

I don’t disagree with you about equality. I want full equality and won’t settle for less.

Yet I will also encourage those who take steps in the right direction. And if we have to take things in steps, I’ll take them while I advocate for full equality.

In Warren’s case, I applaud him for the small steps he has taken. But in no way are those small steps adequate or an exuse for his blatant bigotry in comparing gays to pedophiles.

I consider Warren to be different from, say, most Southern Baptist preachers quoted in the paper. But by no means should he provide the invocation at the inauguration.

EvilPoet

That olive branch has thorns. OUCH. Warren reminds me of Falwell.

“I believe that homosexuality is moral perversion,” Falwell told NPR in 1996. “I think it is a violation of the laws of nature, as well as the laws of God. I do not think that that gives me permission to be unkind or ungracious to a person who may be living a homosexual lifestyle.” http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10188427

Melisssa

Marrige hasn’t changed over the past 5,000 years? Really?

And here I thought that blacks could marry whites, divorce was legal, polygamy is illegal, and women were still property of their husbands.

besides polygamy is allowed in Islam.

BS that marrige hasn’t changed

Mare

It’s amazing how those commenting here can take the man’s words and twist and distort them to justify their own hatred and anger. There is not an angry word or tone in anything that Rick Warren has said. He is simply expressing his beliefs.

Look at the name calling, look at the venom that is so freely spewed here! It’s amazing how vile people can become when the want their agenda to be the mandate!

How can you call the man a liar for saying he has gay friends? What if I called you a liar for saying you had gay friends?

Or saying marriage has changed by bringing up polygamy, and blacks marrying whites when the issue is marriage between a man and a woman?

Do you hear Pastor Warren calling you names and calling you liars?

Can’t you make your opinions be known with out spewing hatred, and, by honest comparisons, i.e. apples to apples and oranges to oranges, rather than the ridiculous comparisons that are taking place here?

By the way, I am a Christian, I have gay friends whom I LOVE dearly, including a sister in law. You have NO RIGHT to make such a hideous statement!!! I can love my sister in law, accept her decisions and her choice of a life style. However, I know that the Bible says her lifestyle is a sin. I want to see her avoid sin in her life, as much as I want to avoid sin in my life. Sin is sin, is sin, is sin. I am no better a person than she is. It’s about removing sin from your life people! We all have choices to make!

I am entitled to my understanding and views of how to live my life, just as Rick Warren is, just as my sister in law is, and just as each of you are. But I DON’T choose to HATE others for not sharing my convictions, as many of you here do.

Maurice Lacunza

Dear Mare,
Are you of a minority race? Is your skin black? Have any of your Christian friends lately been strung up on a barb wire fence? How many of your friends have been beat up? How about you? If you aren’t on the receiving end of discrimination, then you can’t understand the pain, sorrow, sadness; and then comes the venom.

I no longer want to hear how perverted I am, or what a genetic misfit I am. I no longer want to hear that God hates me. I love God, I love Christ. He loves me. Why should I have to hide? Why should I not have equal access to the law?

I hear your point about the vile mud slinging back and forth. But please understand that victims have a right to be angry and express that anger. And passing Prop 8 won’t heal that pain. It goes much deeper. I still long to be accepted for who I am by my church, my family, my government, my school, my friends, my hometown.

Gay people want to be loved and accepted. If society had laws that gave equal access to gays, then maybe people’s attitudes would loosen and eventually we would be just another demographic in some marketing poll.

I imagine that the lack of understanding towards gays creates fear. The Bible says that where there is fear, love is not perfected.

Maurice Lacunza

One more thing Mare, you can’t call cake pie, and, you can’t call discrimination “personal convictions” and “right to an opinion”.

Priya Lynn

Mare said “I am entitled to my understanding and views of how to live my life, just as Rick Warren is, just as my sister in law is, and just as each of you are.”.

As you said, you’re entitled to live your life as you choose, but trouble is you aren’t satisfied with that, you want to criticize others for how they live theirs when they hurt no one and you want to tell them they are sinning and they shouldn’t do that. Live your own life and let others live your own. If you don’t like the way they live their lives keep it to yourself.

Mare said “But I DONâ€™T choose to HATE others for not sharing my convictions, as many of you here do.”.

You’ve chosen an ugly attitude Mare, you have to accept that with that choice you’ve chosen hate and displayed it for all to see. You aren’t hated for not sharing the convictions of gays, you’re hated for condemning as sinful those who hurt no one. You don’t like that then change because it is an accurate judgement.

John

Mare,

So, I guess you would think it perfectly okay for one of your neighbors or friends to go around comparing you to a child rapist? That person would be welcome in your home and honored with the highest profile position you could think to give him/her?

I don’t think so. This despicable bigot should be loudly denounced by all decent people, not given an honored position at this president’s inauguration.

By the way, did you ask this sister-in-law that have, what does she think of this man who thinks she is the moral equivalent of a child molester? If you haven’t, I would strongly encourage you to bring it up. Perhaps you will learn something. And if you so defend the bigotted Rev. Warren as staunchly to your sister-in-law as you do to us, perhaps she will learn something about you too.

Timothy Kincaid