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	<title>Comments on: Rick Warren Removes Anti-Gay Membership Message from FAQ</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-29384</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 04:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-29384</guid>
		<description>Curtis,

Timothy already warned you that this site wasn&#039;t created in order to provide a platform for you to promote your web site. In fact, that is forbidden by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;our comments policy&lt;/a&gt;. Since you have already been warned once and chose to ignore it, you are now banned from commenting here further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curtis,</p>
<p>Timothy already warned you that this site wasn&#8217;t created in order to provide a platform for you to promote your web site. In fact, that is forbidden by <a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">our comments policy</a>. Since you have already been warned once and chose to ignore it, you are now banned from commenting here further.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-29376</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-29376</guid>
		<description>Curtis,
I’ve taken a quick dekko at your blog. I have neither the desire nor the time to write an essay in reply; others may do that if they wish.  I’d just like to point out a few things with regard to what you call the “homosexual lifestyle”, by which you appear to mean particular homosexual acts, and the potential health dangers associated with them. (You may as well ignore Cameron’s fraudulent research, because it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on.)

1. There is nothing that any homosexual couple can do with each other that can’t also be done by a heterosexual couple.

2. There is nothing that any homosexual couple do with each other that isn’t also done by some heterosexual couples.

3. Therefore any potential health risks associated with these sexual acts apply whether they are engaged in by a homosexual or a heterosexual couple.

4. Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is primarily about attraction to persons rather than to particular sexual acts. This being so, warnings about any potential risks associated with those acts – whether valid or not, and whether taken to heart or not – will not make an iota of difference to anyone’s sexual orientation. There was a time in history when heterosexual intercourse was associated with enormous risks of dying in childbirth for working-class and even middle-class women (quite apart from STDs, for which there was no reliable cure). A woman who signed the parish marriage register this year stood a very good chance of appearing in the parish burial register next year. Did that deter women from the “heterosexual lifestyle”? Did it hell as like.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curtis,<br />
I’ve taken a quick dekko at your blog. I have neither the desire nor the time to write an essay in reply; others may do that if they wish.  I’d just like to point out a few things with regard to what you call the “homosexual lifestyle”, by which you appear to mean particular homosexual acts, and the potential health dangers associated with them. (You may as well ignore Cameron’s fraudulent research, because it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on.)</p>
<p>1. There is nothing that any homosexual couple can do with each other that can’t also be done by a heterosexual couple.</p>
<p>2. There is nothing that any homosexual couple do with each other that isn’t also done by some heterosexual couples.</p>
<p>3. Therefore any potential health risks associated with these sexual acts apply whether they are engaged in by a homosexual or a heterosexual couple.</p>
<p>4. Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is primarily about attraction to persons rather than to particular sexual acts. This being so, warnings about any potential risks associated with those acts – whether valid or not, and whether taken to heart or not – will not make an iota of difference to anyone’s sexual orientation. There was a time in history when heterosexual intercourse was associated with enormous risks of dying in childbirth for working-class and even middle-class women (quite apart from STDs, for which there was no reliable cure). A woman who signed the parish marriage register this year stood a very good chance of appearing in the parish burial register next year. Did that deter women from the “heterosexual lifestyle”? Did it hell as like.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-29372</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-29372</guid>
		<description>&quot;Even if we do find offensive your practices.&quot;

What practices would those be?  Looking for gainful employment based on our skills and workmanship?  Finding a partner?  Raising a family?  Because these are all practices that all people do regardless of sexuality.

If you are referring to specific bedroom activites -- they are none of your business, and certainly not for you to judge or comment on, unless you are inviting us to grade you on what you do in private?

And if you seriously want gay people to take anything you say seriously, you will do the following.

&lt;b&gt;Stop using falsehoods like &quot;the gay lifestyle&quot;, there is no such thing.&lt;/b&gt;  Our symbol is the rainbow because we come from all walks of life.  If you talk to a gay person in Seattle and a gay person in Miami -- you will find they live very different lifestyles, the least of which involves their love life.  Even two gay men from Chicago will lead very different lifestyles.  For example, my best friend, also a gay man, lived in an expensive condo downtown, drove to work every day in a convertible, and came home to a tall husband and a dog, they drink, they gamble sometimes, and travel abroad.  I, on the other hand, live in an apartment just outside the city, am currently looking for a job, live with a cat, don&#039;t travel, don&#039;t drive, don&#039;t drink, and neither does my partner.  And that&#039;s just the tip of the iceberg in the differences in our lifestyles.
You wear ignorance on your sleeve by repeating the dogma of a &quot;gay lifestyle&quot; because for every gay person in the world there is a different way to live.

&lt;b&gt;Stop using the falsehood of conversion.&lt;/b&gt; For the &quot;thousands&quot; claimed to have been &quot;changed&quot;, there are never more than 1-2 hundred to be found when it&#039;s time to do follow ups.  Even the **best** data on the subject, the Jones and Yarhouse study admits that very few people are successful, have a very &quot;complicated&quot; version of heterosexuality, and that NONE of the success stories have every stopped having desires for the same sex.  Ex gay industry lies and misinformation is covered, at length, on BTB, as well as other sites like Ex-Gay Watch.  Simply put, the only change that happens is that gay people stop referring to themselves as gay and start denying who they are.  The only change is in how they view themselves, the desires don&#039;t go away, they are merely ignored, supressed, coped-with, no one &quot;switches&quot;. How many more Ted Haggards have to be caught with gay prostitutes before people stop these lies and misinformation?  
If change was possible, if thousands had been helped, it would be quite easy to show this scientifically, and to date - no one has proven this with any solid science, just a lot of anecdotes, sketchy methodology, and playing semantical switcheroo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Even if we do find offensive your practices.&#8221;</p>
<p>What practices would those be?  Looking for gainful employment based on our skills and workmanship?  Finding a partner?  Raising a family?  Because these are all practices that all people do regardless of sexuality.</p>
<p>If you are referring to specific bedroom activites &#8212; they are none of your business, and certainly not for you to judge or comment on, unless you are inviting us to grade you on what you do in private?</p>
<p>And if you seriously want gay people to take anything you say seriously, you will do the following.</p>
<p><b>Stop using falsehoods like &#8220;the gay lifestyle&#8221;, there is no such thing.</b>  Our symbol is the rainbow because we come from all walks of life.  If you talk to a gay person in Seattle and a gay person in Miami &#8212; you will find they live very different lifestyles, the least of which involves their love life.  Even two gay men from Chicago will lead very different lifestyles.  For example, my best friend, also a gay man, lived in an expensive condo downtown, drove to work every day in a convertible, and came home to a tall husband and a dog, they drink, they gamble sometimes, and travel abroad.  I, on the other hand, live in an apartment just outside the city, am currently looking for a job, live with a cat, don&#8217;t travel, don&#8217;t drive, don&#8217;t drink, and neither does my partner.  And that&#8217;s just the tip of the iceberg in the differences in our lifestyles.<br />
You wear ignorance on your sleeve by repeating the dogma of a &#8220;gay lifestyle&#8221; because for every gay person in the world there is a different way to live.</p>
<p><b>Stop using the falsehood of conversion.</b> For the &#8220;thousands&#8221; claimed to have been &#8220;changed&#8221;, there are never more than 1-2 hundred to be found when it&#8217;s time to do follow ups.  Even the **best** data on the subject, the Jones and Yarhouse study admits that very few people are successful, have a very &#8220;complicated&#8221; version of heterosexuality, and that NONE of the success stories have every stopped having desires for the same sex.  Ex gay industry lies and misinformation is covered, at length, on BTB, as well as other sites like Ex-Gay Watch.  Simply put, the only change that happens is that gay people stop referring to themselves as gay and start denying who they are.  The only change is in how they view themselves, the desires don&#8217;t go away, they are merely ignored, supressed, coped-with, no one &#8220;switches&#8221;. How many more Ted Haggards have to be caught with gay prostitutes before people stop these lies and misinformation?<br />
If change was possible, if thousands had been helped, it would be quite easy to show this scientifically, and to date &#8211; no one has proven this with any solid science, just a lot of anecdotes, sketchy methodology, and playing semantical switcheroo.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-29364</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-29364</guid>
		<description>Curtis if you truly want gay people to have better lives then stop promoting these lies and hatred against them and stop trying to ruin their loving relationships.  I&#039;ve had relationships with women and now a man and the idea that I should have forgone either is ignorant and preposterous.  Under no circumstances should any gay person deny themselves a same sex relationship just to make you happy.  That wouldn&#039;t be a better future, it&#039;d be a much worse one.  To suggest that gay people can &quot;switch back&quot; is to deny the fact that most gays were always gay just as I&#039;ve been always bisexual.  The best future involves being with the one you love most and ignoring the hate of people like you who&#039;d try to interfere in those loving relationships.

Stop wasting your live spreading hate against gays and do something worthwhile with your time like helping the poor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curtis if you truly want gay people to have better lives then stop promoting these lies and hatred against them and stop trying to ruin their loving relationships.  I&#8217;ve had relationships with women and now a man and the idea that I should have forgone either is ignorant and preposterous.  Under no circumstances should any gay person deny themselves a same sex relationship just to make you happy.  That wouldn&#8217;t be a better future, it&#8217;d be a much worse one.  To suggest that gay people can &#8220;switch back&#8221; is to deny the fact that most gays were always gay just as I&#8217;ve been always bisexual.  The best future involves being with the one you love most and ignoring the hate of people like you who&#8217;d try to interfere in those loving relationships.</p>
<p>Stop wasting your live spreading hate against gays and do something worthwhile with your time like helping the poor.</p>
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		<title>By: Curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-29357</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-29357</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;[This comment has been deleted due to violations to our &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;comments policy &lt;/a&gt;--Jim Burroway]&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>[This comment has been deleted due to violations to our <a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">comments policy </a>--Jim Burroway]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-28895</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-28895</guid>
		<description>Timothy, David,

Thank you for your kind response and explanation. Pardon me for still some ways I am in the stone age with computer usage. 
Please bear in mind many of my friends and I do not support bias attacks against your group. We do not clap our hands or do high fives when hearing of any crimes against your community. 
Even if we do find offensive your practices. We do not use religion or politics or social issues as a front for harassing individuals and groups. There are vital reasons we do not do such things or endorse them.
Although I am not supportive of the gay community. It is my wish each individual enjoy the best of health and happiness from the finest possible resources these may come.
Humane Regards,
mr cjinspector</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, David,</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind response and explanation. Pardon me for still some ways I am in the stone age with computer usage.<br />
Please bear in mind many of my friends and I do not support bias attacks against your group. We do not clap our hands or do high fives when hearing of any crimes against your community.<br />
Even if we do find offensive your practices. We do not use religion or politics or social issues as a front for harassing individuals and groups. There are vital reasons we do not do such things or endorse them.<br />
Although I am not supportive of the gay community. It is my wish each individual enjoy the best of health and happiness from the finest possible resources these may come.<br />
Humane Regards,<br />
mr cjinspector</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-28866</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-28866</guid>
		<description>It turns out that Saddleback is NOT taking down their anti-gay statement after all - they are merely converting it to audio:


http://www.queerty.com/saddleback-church-site-not-taking-down-gay-condemnations-after-all-20081223/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It turns out that Saddleback is NOT taking down their anti-gay statement after all &#8211; they are merely converting it to audio:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.queerty.com/saddleback-church-site-not-taking-down-gay-condemnations-after-all-20081223/" rel="nofollow">http://www.queerty.com/saddleback-church-site-not-taking-down-gay-condemnations-after-all-20081223/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-28858</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-28858</guid>
		<description>Curtis,

I left your comments but I removed your efforts to redirect the readers to your site.

I don&#039;t know about censorship elsewhere, but the purpose of Box Turtle Bulletin isn&#039;t to promote your site.  If you wish to have conversation, you may do so here.  But we do not encourage offsite debates.  If you have anything to say, do so where others can read and dispute your claims.

If I had found on your site some content that was original or substantive in nature, I&#039;d have provided a link of my own, accompanied with commentary.  I didn&#039;t.

Incidentally, it has nothing to do with the direction of your opinions.  I would do the same if I felt that a pro-gay commenter was trying to redirect traffic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curtis,</p>
<p>I left your comments but I removed your efforts to redirect the readers to your site.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about censorship elsewhere, but the purpose of Box Turtle Bulletin isn&#8217;t to promote your site.  If you wish to have conversation, you may do so here.  But we do not encourage offsite debates.  If you have anything to say, do so where others can read and dispute your claims.</p>
<p>If I had found on your site some content that was original or substantive in nature, I&#8217;d have provided a link of my own, accompanied with commentary.  I didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Incidentally, it has nothing to do with the direction of your opinions.  I would do the same if I felt that a pro-gay commenter was trying to redirect traffic.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-28851</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-28851</guid>
		<description>Curtis, anyone can click on your name in the header and be taken to your blog. Please dispense with your persecution complex.

But, anyone who uses the Family Research Institute as &quot;evidence&quot; against gays as if it were true shouldn&#039;t be speaking to much about truth - they obviously don&#039;t care about the concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curtis, anyone can click on your name in the header and be taken to your blog. Please dispense with your persecution complex.</p>
<p>But, anyone who uses the Family Research Institute as &#8220;evidence&#8221; against gays as if it were true shouldn&#8217;t be speaking to much about truth &#8211; they obviously don&#8217;t care about the concept.</p>
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		<title>By: Curtis</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/22/7607/comment-page-1#comment-28841</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=7607#comment-28841</guid>
		<description>Rick, David C., Patrick &amp; Others-Hello-Tell me is there a censorship within the gay community and on this site here? Are people allow here reading our comments to know where my blog site is? I had allowed David C. comments posted on my blog site which has a link to this site. Should not the kindness be returned if my blog site is not attacking your community. But it is my admittance voicing again a social concern not in agreement of your viewpoints. Why not let the visitors come to their own truthful conclusions and allow a link to my blog site, Curtis&#039; Expectations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, David C., Patrick &amp; Others-Hello-Tell me is there a censorship within the gay community and on this site here? Are people allow here reading our comments to know where my blog site is? I had allowed David C. comments posted on my blog site which has a link to this site. Should not the kindness be returned if my blog site is not attacking your community. But it is my admittance voicing again a social concern not in agreement of your viewpoints. Why not let the visitors come to their own truthful conclusions and allow a link to my blog site, Curtis&#8217; Expectations?</p>
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