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	<title>Comments on: Prop 8 and Race: A Rejoinder</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/14/8059</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Clayton Critcher</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/14/8059/comment-page-1#comment-30669</link>
		<dc:creator>Clayton Critcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=8059#comment-30669</guid>
		<description>Timothy&#039;s contention is based on his interpretation of the word &quot;why&quot; and the fact that Jaime did not include all of the information relied upon in the strong of logic Timothy quoted.  Timothy is interpreting why as a &quot;root cause.&quot;  Let me use  Timothy&#039;s analogies and the subject of the NGLTF report to explain both of these points:

Even though LGB Californians may be more likely to live in coastal communities, coastal residence would NOT statistically account for LGB Californians&#039; opposition to Prop 8, because these are two separate sources of influence.  LGB Californians in the central valleys were certainly more likely to vote against Prop 8 than their heterosexual counterparts, so a statistical model would identify two separate causes of Prop 8 opposition: Coastal residence and LGB status.  These are non-redundant signals.

If it is established that accounting for religiosity eliminates racial differences in Prop 8 support (but not vice versa), religiosity can be understood as a more &quot;proximal cause&quot; of Prop 8 support.  I use the word &quot;cause&quot; here loosely, in that there could be something in people (Black and White alike) that attracts them to religion and leads them to be anti-gay.  If religion is a better marker of this &quot;anti-gay proclivity&quot; than race, it could both be true that Blacks have more of this anti-gay proclivity than Whites, but that religion is a more efficient marker of this proclivity.  I think this is the point Timothy was making; establishing what &quot;proximally explains&quot; an effect is different from understanding its root cause.

To address the yarmulke example:  Imagine there are 10 Jews (all of whom were wearing yarmulkes) and 10 Protestants in a room.  9 of the Jews are liberal, and only 1 of the Protestants is.  In this analysis, yarmulke-wearing would not be a predictor of political liberalism after controlling for religion (because it is a redundant signal).  The reason that religion accounts for Prop 8 above and beyond race is that it is not a redundant signal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy&#8217;s contention is based on his interpretation of the word &#8220;why&#8221; and the fact that Jaime did not include all of the information relied upon in the strong of logic Timothy quoted.  Timothy is interpreting why as a &#8220;root cause.&#8221;  Let me use  Timothy&#8217;s analogies and the subject of the NGLTF report to explain both of these points:</p>
<p>Even though LGB Californians may be more likely to live in coastal communities, coastal residence would NOT statistically account for LGB Californians&#8217; opposition to Prop 8, because these are two separate sources of influence.  LGB Californians in the central valleys were certainly more likely to vote against Prop 8 than their heterosexual counterparts, so a statistical model would identify two separate causes of Prop 8 opposition: Coastal residence and LGB status.  These are non-redundant signals.</p>
<p>If it is established that accounting for religiosity eliminates racial differences in Prop 8 support (but not vice versa), religiosity can be understood as a more &#8220;proximal cause&#8221; of Prop 8 support.  I use the word &#8220;cause&#8221; here loosely, in that there could be something in people (Black and White alike) that attracts them to religion and leads them to be anti-gay.  If religion is a better marker of this &#8220;anti-gay proclivity&#8221; than race, it could both be true that Blacks have more of this anti-gay proclivity than Whites, but that religion is a more efficient marker of this proclivity.  I think this is the point Timothy was making; establishing what &#8220;proximally explains&#8221; an effect is different from understanding its root cause.</p>
<p>To address the yarmulke example:  Imagine there are 10 Jews (all of whom were wearing yarmulkes) and 10 Protestants in a room.  9 of the Jews are liberal, and only 1 of the Protestants is.  In this analysis, yarmulke-wearing would not be a predictor of political liberalism after controlling for religion (because it is a redundant signal).  The reason that religion accounts for Prop 8 above and beyond race is that it is not a redundant signal.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/14/8059/comment-page-1#comment-30663</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=8059#comment-30663</guid>
		<description>Timothy said &quot;To suggest that religious attendance is the reason “why” African Americans voted for Prop 8 is much like suggesting that observant Jews vote in a particular way because they wear yarmelkes.&quot;

I don&#039;t think so.  Most Christians are anti-gay, its easier to read modern translations of the bible as anti-gay then not. It stands to reason that those who attend church are more likely to be anti-gay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy said &#8220;To suggest that religious attendance is the reason “why” African Americans voted for Prop 8 is much like suggesting that observant Jews vote in a particular way because they wear yarmelkes.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think so.  Most Christians are anti-gay, its easier to read modern translations of the bible as anti-gay then not. It stands to reason that those who attend church are more likely to be anti-gay.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/14/8059/comment-page-1#comment-30658</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=8059#comment-30658</guid>
		<description>

&lt;blockquote&gt;In other words, if you’re trying to figure out why African Americans voted at higher rates for Proposition 8 than the general population, part of the answer is that they as a group are more religious than the general population–and religious people voted at high rates for Prop. 8.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Let&#039;s see if that logic holds up well in looking at another demographic:

If you&#039;re trying to figure out why gays voted at higher rates AGAINST Proposition 8 than the general population, part of the answer is that they as a group are more likely to live in coastal areas of the state than the general population - and coastal residents voted at high rates against Prop. 8.

Hmmm... not so likely.

Perhaps, Jamie Grant is making a distinction without a difference and is not ignoring the relationship between communities and religion.  To suggest that religious attendance is the reason &quot;why&quot; African Americans voted for Prop 8 is much like suggesting that observant Jews vote in a particular way because they wear yarmelkes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In other words, if you’re trying to figure out why African Americans voted at higher rates for Proposition 8 than the general population, part of the answer is that they as a group are more religious than the general population–and religious people voted at high rates for Prop. 8.</p></blockquote>
<p>Let&#8217;s see if that logic holds up well in looking at another demographic:</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re trying to figure out why gays voted at higher rates AGAINST Proposition 8 than the general population, part of the answer is that they as a group are more likely to live in coastal areas of the state than the general population &#8211; and coastal residents voted at high rates against Prop. 8.</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230; not so likely.</p>
<p>Perhaps, Jamie Grant is making a distinction without a difference and is not ignoring the relationship between communities and religion.  To suggest that religious attendance is the reason &#8220;why&#8221; African Americans voted for Prop 8 is much like suggesting that observant Jews vote in a particular way because they wear yarmelkes.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ware</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/14/8059/comment-page-1#comment-30656</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ware</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=8059#comment-30656</guid>
		<description>Good back and forth. Glad they took time to respond and that you brought their comment to the front.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good back and forth. Glad they took time to respond and that you brought their comment to the front.</p>
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