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	<title>Comments on: Some Thoughts on the Challenge to Prop 8</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Bruno</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36285</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36285</guid>
		<description>I never understood how they could come down with a ruling that both prop 8 &amp; the 18,000 marriages stood either, but there you go.  They&#039;ll claim their &quot;hands are tied&quot; (which they&#039;re not), but I&#039;m pretty sure that&#039;s how it&#039;ll come down, because justice Kennard is firmly for holding up prop 8.  Unless Corrigan or Chin defect to the other side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never understood how they could come down with a ruling that both prop 8 &amp; the 18,000 marriages stood either, but there you go.  They&#8217;ll claim their &#8220;hands are tied&#8221; (which they&#8217;re not), but I&#8217;m pretty sure that&#8217;s how it&#8217;ll come down, because justice Kennard is firmly for holding up prop 8.  Unless Corrigan or Chin defect to the other side.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36263</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36263</guid>
		<description>Gabriel, 

Click the link on &quot;Two Classes&quot; above.  The article quoted David Cruz but I believe that he&#039;s not alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gabriel, </p>
<p>Click the link on &#8220;Two Classes&#8221; above.  The article quoted David Cruz but I believe that he&#8217;s not alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriel Arana</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36262</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriel Arana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36262</guid>
		<description>The equal protection argument between already-married and not-married gay couples seems flimsy to me. Can anyone point me to the scholars making this argument?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The equal protection argument between already-married and not-married gay couples seems flimsy to me. Can anyone point me to the scholars making this argument?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36261</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36261</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true, they&#039;re in quite a pickle.  They can&#039;t split the difference without causing more chaos in the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true, they&#8217;re in quite a pickle.  They can&#8217;t split the difference without causing more chaos in the process.</p>
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		<title>By: Eddie89</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36260</link>
		<dc:creator>Eddie89</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36260</guid>
		<description>Kaelan Housewright and Ali Shams, two &quot;straight&quot; college students in California have officially filed a ballot initiative in California to have the State change marriage to &quot;domestic partnership&quot; when dealing with the marriage issue in a civil setting.

So, if passed this would make straight and gay marriage equal under the law.

Here’s the official website for The Domestic Partnership Initiative:

http://www.dompar.org/

Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42833687407&amp;ref=nf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaelan Housewright and Ali Shams, two &#8220;straight&#8221; college students in California have officially filed a ballot initiative in California to have the State change marriage to &#8220;domestic partnership&#8221; when dealing with the marriage issue in a civil setting.</p>
<p>So, if passed this would make straight and gay marriage equal under the law.</p>
<p>Here’s the official website for The Domestic Partnership Initiative:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dompar.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.dompar.org/</a></p>
<p>Facebook:<br />
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42833687407&amp;ref=nf" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42833687407&amp;ref=nf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Unintended Consequences of Proposition 8 &#171; Deanna&#8217;s Ramblings</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36255</link>
		<dc:creator>Unintended Consequences of Proposition 8 &#171; Deanna&#8217;s Ramblings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:03:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36255</guid>
		<description>[...] Blogs by deannaizme   I was reading an article in the Sacramento Bee this morning (hat tip: Box Turtle Bulletin) that got me thinking.  Here are the pertinent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Blogs by deannaizme   I was reading an article in the Sacramento Bee this morning (hat tip: Box Turtle Bulletin) that got me thinking.  Here are the pertinent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: K</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36236</link>
		<dc:creator>K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36236</guid>
		<description>I believe the GLAD challenge could be the break-out ruling for future rights. Should GLAD win, and Mass. marriages be federally recognized for the three challenged reasons (IRS, Social Security, and married-name-on-passports), the outcome will be extendable to all federal rights, and to other states that recognize marriage (e.g., New York recognizes marriages from MA, CT, and foreign countries like Canada and Spain).

The GLAD case is very important, so support their efforts if you can.

Oh, and think about this: When that case goes to court, we will see the extent to which the Obama Justice Department defends (or does not defend) DOMA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the GLAD challenge could be the break-out ruling for future rights. Should GLAD win, and Mass. marriages be federally recognized for the three challenged reasons (IRS, Social Security, and married-name-on-passports), the outcome will be extendable to all federal rights, and to other states that recognize marriage (e.g., New York recognizes marriages from MA, CT, and foreign countries like Canada and Spain).</p>
<p>The GLAD case is very important, so support their efforts if you can.</p>
<p>Oh, and think about this: When that case goes to court, we will see the extent to which the Obama Justice Department defends (or does not defend) DOMA.</p>
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		<title>By: Snyper42</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36203</link>
		<dc:creator>Snyper42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36203</guid>
		<description>I have repeatedly read and heard the phrase &quot;... the sanctity of marriage ...&quot;.

In the Oxford Concise Dictionary, the word &quot;sanctity&quot; is defined as:

sanctity
• noun (pl. sanctities) 1 holiness; saintliness.

These indicate that, while borrowed for other usages, the word is essentially a religious one . . . as is &quot;marriage&quot; in the minds of most opponents of same-sex &quot;marriage&quot;. 

I am reminded that the Constitution of the United States of America gives:

&quot;...Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...&quot;.

The laws of our land are somewhat schizophrenic, in that they do not always keep pace with logic and clarity. Many humorous and not-so-humorous examples can come to mind.

In this instance, it seems necessary to consider that &quot;marriage&quot;, where it is understood as an extension of ones&#039; personal religious views is logically protected by a Constitutionally-mandated blindness on the part of the U.S. Government. Not all religions, not even all sects of Christianity, view marriage as a sacrament or sacred activity.

I find a way out of the present tangle of religion and government by looking at the solution presented by New Zealand.

In New Zealand, &quot;marriage&quot;, like a bris, baptism or whatever religious ritual, does NOT of necessity exist in governmental law or parlance. Instead, they mandated a grandfathering of all marriages prior to their legislation into &quot;Civil Partnerships&quot; as far as the law was concerned. They systematically went through all their old marriage laws and merely substituted the words &quot;Civil Partnership&quot; wherever and whenever the word &quot;marriage&quot; occurred, then expanded the requiremnts to allow for said Civil Partnerships to include same-sex relationships. In New Zealand thought, if any legal Civil Partners wish to have a &quot;marriage&quot; ceremony, it is the purview of their private religious group to oversee such a private religious activity. . . and is in no way the place of the Government to pay it any attention whatsoever.

I think that we could take a page from the Kiwis on this matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have repeatedly read and heard the phrase &#8220;&#8230; the sanctity of marriage &#8230;&#8221;.</p>
<p>In the Oxford Concise Dictionary, the word &#8220;sanctity&#8221; is defined as:</p>
<p>sanctity<br />
• noun (pl. sanctities) 1 holiness; saintliness.</p>
<p>These indicate that, while borrowed for other usages, the word is essentially a religious one . . . as is &#8220;marriage&#8221; in the minds of most opponents of same-sex &#8220;marriage&#8221;. </p>
<p>I am reminded that the Constitution of the United States of America gives:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof&#8230;&#8221;.</p>
<p>The laws of our land are somewhat schizophrenic, in that they do not always keep pace with logic and clarity. Many humorous and not-so-humorous examples can come to mind.</p>
<p>In this instance, it seems necessary to consider that &#8220;marriage&#8221;, where it is understood as an extension of ones&#8217; personal religious views is logically protected by a Constitutionally-mandated blindness on the part of the U.S. Government. Not all religions, not even all sects of Christianity, view marriage as a sacrament or sacred activity.</p>
<p>I find a way out of the present tangle of religion and government by looking at the solution presented by New Zealand.</p>
<p>In New Zealand, &#8220;marriage&#8221;, like a bris, baptism or whatever religious ritual, does NOT of necessity exist in governmental law or parlance. Instead, they mandated a grandfathering of all marriages prior to their legislation into &#8220;Civil Partnerships&#8221; as far as the law was concerned. They systematically went through all their old marriage laws and merely substituted the words &#8220;Civil Partnership&#8221; wherever and whenever the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; occurred, then expanded the requiremnts to allow for said Civil Partnerships to include same-sex relationships. In New Zealand thought, if any legal Civil Partners wish to have a &#8220;marriage&#8221; ceremony, it is the purview of their private religious group to oversee such a private religious activity. . . and is in no way the place of the Government to pay it any attention whatsoever.</p>
<p>I think that we could take a page from the Kiwis on this matter.</p>
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		<title>By: HappyCat</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36193</link>
		<dc:creator>HappyCat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 07:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36193</guid>
		<description>I have talked with a few people who understand law much better then me.  Their feeling is prop H8 will be tossed aside.  If the court rules that the voters can take away rights, this sets up way to power to a simple majority.  

Therefore forcing the change of the way the State&#039;s Constitution changed.  It will take a revision, not an amendment to change the way it is changed.  Which would be more work for the legislature to plan correctly.  Each method the legislature would come up with will face a court challenge as there isn&#039;t a clear method written in Califoria&#039;s Constitution.  As of now, there are two ways, revision or amendment.  If the court upholds prop H8, this sets the rules for changing the complete constitution which has the strong posibilty of stripping away many other rights.

  Once it is ruled that a simple majority, 50% + 1 can remove rights from a minority, changing the constitution after that precedent has been set, changing the constitution to make it harder to remove rights from another minority would violate the precedent already set.  

  I hope what I am saying makes sense.  It took me a bit before I got what they were saying.

  I know the AG tried to argue that prop H8 was an amendment, not a revision, but from all the people I have talked to say he was dead wrong.

  I am hoping the court rules to toss prop H8 out and it is plain wrong, but to hear the argument from my friends gives me hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have talked with a few people who understand law much better then me.  Their feeling is prop H8 will be tossed aside.  If the court rules that the voters can take away rights, this sets up way to power to a simple majority.  </p>
<p>Therefore forcing the change of the way the State&#8217;s Constitution changed.  It will take a revision, not an amendment to change the way it is changed.  Which would be more work for the legislature to plan correctly.  Each method the legislature would come up with will face a court challenge as there isn&#8217;t a clear method written in Califoria&#8217;s Constitution.  As of now, there are two ways, revision or amendment.  If the court upholds prop H8, this sets the rules for changing the complete constitution which has the strong posibilty of stripping away many other rights.</p>
<p>  Once it is ruled that a simple majority, 50% + 1 can remove rights from a minority, changing the constitution after that precedent has been set, changing the constitution to make it harder to remove rights from another minority would violate the precedent already set.  </p>
<p>  I hope what I am saying makes sense.  It took me a bit before I got what they were saying.</p>
<p>  I know the AG tried to argue that prop H8 was an amendment, not a revision, but from all the people I have talked to say he was dead wrong.</p>
<p>  I am hoping the court rules to toss prop H8 out and it is plain wrong, but to hear the argument from my friends gives me hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/11/9694/comment-page-1#comment-36176</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 02:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=9694#comment-36176</guid>
		<description>This is getting good. 
Big giant can o&#039; worms the State will open either way they decide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is getting good.<br />
Big giant can o&#8217; worms the State will open either way they decide.</p>
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