That would be true if all things were equal, but they’re not. It’s not that we’re saying “Vanilla is Best!” and they’re saying “Strawberry is Best!” We’re saying “Excuse us, we’d like strawberry just like all the other people at this party” and they’re saying “NO, you can’t have any. Nothing personal, but NO.” The opposition to gay marriage would make sense if we were proposing banning heterosexual marriage in the process. If we wanted to replace hetero marriage with gay marriage — that would make sense. But we’re not. We don’t want to touch straight people, or their marriages. We don’t want to take over the institution, just to be included in state and federal law.

I feel that some in the gay community (not all) like Perez are trying to intimidate us into agreeing with them. People on this site are bashing someone for “stating” what they believe! (So for those of us who agree with her that sounds an alarm in our head) Soon it could be me who is asked the question.

Read the comments Richard, she’s not being bashed for expressing an opinion, she’s being bashed for the content and lack of critical thinking involved in that expression. Not to mention the lies about her losing the crown, or her sister the gay rights activist, or….a lot of other things.

Perez Hilton aside, i don’t see how when we say we disagree we’re suddenly intimidating people. No one stopped or tried to stop Carrie from expressing her opinion, indeed, NOM spent a million dollars to remind us of that opinion. The voters in CA weren’t prevented from expressing their opinions both with signs in their yards and with votes at the ballot box. We keep hearing about all this intimidation and censorship, but every day I read more about how this person, or that person thinks gay are awful, shouldn’t be protected from hate crimes and shouldn’t get married — if we’re intimidating and censoring people, we are completely failing on both fronts! Tomorrow we’ll wake up and someone else will be talking about the big gay boogeyman, proving again, that we’re not intimidating and censoring anybody. Nor is that our goal.

As far as respect goes, if you go through this website you’ll see how often the anti-gay side of it, well, just plain, boldly, LIES about us, our families, or relationships, they seem to be obsessed with our sex lives. How are we to give respect when virtually none is given to us, our kids, our families, or lives themselves?

Richard, when you encounter a racist do you respect his belief that black people are inferior? When you encounter a neo-nazi do you respect his belief that jews are animals?

Here’s one more thought for you. It is one thing to believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman. I disagree, I don’t think it is based on any kind of reality, but I can maintain a modicum of respect for those who do.

but to deserve respect, you must act respectably. It is quite another thing to advance ridiculous areguments that have no basis in reality, to tell lies, distortions, and half truths, to defame a whole group of people who have done you no harm, who want only what you claim for yourself, to ignore reality, facts, truth, logic, compassion,and law to advance your point of view.

Unfortunately, when you apply the standards of truth, fact, compassion, and logic to most people’s anti-gay positions, all they are left with in their arguments is that they don’t like gay people and think that we are not entitled to what they have because we are not like them.

1) I don’t think you need help because you disagree with me. That is called projection. You’ve made a bunch of silly, irrational arguments which are at heart based on bigotry, not reality, fact, logic, and certainly not compassion and understanding. Those are adult positions. By equating gay relationships with having sex with your lizard or marrying your mother, you seek merely to devalue them.

2) I do value marriage very much, which is why I married my partner. Which is why I supported him through a recent cancer scare. Which is why we intend to be together for the rest of our lives. Unlike, let us say, Britney, who got married for a lark, and had more rights and respect for the 18 hours that she was married to Jason than my friends Lance and Peter or Andy and Paul. Both couples have been devotedly together for more than 40 years, longer than all of the multiple marriages of Limbaugh, Giuliani, and Ginrich, those staunch supporters of hetero-only marriage, put together. Who actually values marriage here?

3) We respect marriage, and we are monogamous. Unlike such staunch defenders of man-woman marriage like Gingrich, Bill Clinton, David Vitter, Larry Craig, john Edwards, Ted Haggard, Lonnie Latham, and a host of others that I get very tired of listing.

3) Though we don’t have children, I also value them very much. Unlike so many Heteros, who think nothing of popping them for no other reason than they CAN. My late partner’s nephew, thoroughly and unfortuantely heterosexual, has produced 3 of them so far by two different women, neither of which he was married to. And the state of Maine supports all three, because he doesn’t want to work. A certain community, so staunch in its determination to defend marriage, is yet so dysfunctional in terms of children having children my multiple men, none of whom the mothers are married to.

4) And actually, I’m pretty sure I do have it all figured out. For some reason that I just cannot fathom– well actually, I can on the surface, but the disconnect from reality is NOT something I understand at all– the very existence of gay people offends, scares and entices a number of straight people, and some who wish they were, but aren’t.

We have been subjected to a consistent prejudice for hundreds of years in many cultures for the crime of loving someone of our own sex, rather than the opposite sex. Not a child, lizard, or close relative, but another adult human being. And what does it all boil down to? I hate queers or my religion tells me to hate queers. It wasn’t always this way, nor has it been (nor is it now) in every culture, though concerted attempts have been and are made to eliminate it, and eliminate even the idea that it was ever acceptable, even a good thing.

People and cultures that are thoughtful, intelligent, compassionate, and reality based examine their beliefs and attitudes, and realize that maybe something they thought was true is not actually, and what they believed to be good actually harms others whose only actual offense is existing, and offending/scaring/enticing who don’t like it, or don’t like something in themselves.

Such people and such cultures realize that there is only one difference between gay people and straight people– we prefer members of our own gender for sex, love, and romance. Anything after that– you’re making it up.

Women and Negroes used to be property, and in some parts of the world, still are. Our Constitution defined black people as 3/5 of a human being– and property. How’s that for being “right”. There were Centuries, if not millennia, of cultural and religious belief, to support that. and yet, somehow, someone figured out it was wrong. And it has changed. just like for gay people. That’s why gay marriage is legal in Canada, South Africa, Spain, Belgium, Holland, Norway, Sweden, and legal recognition is available in France, Germany, Slovenia, Hungary, Czech republic, Ecuador, Uruguay, Colombia, Iceland, Israel, New Zealand. and our own country. You know, the civilized ones.

Who is virulently anti-gay? Most of Africa. All of the middle east except Israel. Russia. China. A good portion of the muslim world, at least officially. Our own south, which also has most of the worst rates of divorce, illegitimacy, and illiteracy. In other words, most of the hellholes and fascist regimes. Massachusetts, which recognizes our marriage, has the second lowest divorce rates, low rates of illegitimate children, and among the highest in education and standard of living. Are you starting to get a picture here?

My husband and I are both of us contributing, tax-paying, law-abiding, and productive members of the community. We live active, healthy, and positive lives. We are well thought of by family, friends, and colleagues, and live in peace with our neighbors. Despite all this, some people think that the fact that we are both men is the only thing of importance, and that this invalidates our love, our commitment, and especially, our claim to equality before the law.

Finally, about the s**t I do not being pretty. How would you know, and why are you thinking about it? I’m not asking for your approval, and I don’t care whether you give it to me. I do not parade my sex life in front of others. I do not invite people to watch. It is none of anybody’s business but ours. I’m sure watching Jesse Helms, Jerry Falwell, and Naggie Gallagher having a three-way isn’t pretty either. I prefer not to think about it.

But this is not about my sex life, but about my access to the equal protection before the law that my constitution promises me, and which my government, for the moment, would deny me for no other reason that someone whose business it isn’t doesn’t like it, or believes their god doesn’t like it.

I’ll give you a piece of advice. I suspect you are a fairly young man. Hopefully, you will some day find that intelligence, reason, fact, and compassion will serve you far better in your life than unreasoning bigotry.

As will examining your motives in going to a website devoted to ending anti-gay prejudice, and understanding why maintaining a bigoted attitude matters to you so much.

Thanks for your thoughts although I still do not believe in gay marriage your opinions hold a magnitude of weight with me, you have both enlightened me a great deal on the subject.

My argument with most is this. Just like you are standing for something you believe in there are also people on the other side of the paradigm standing for what they strongly believe in. If you want people to respect what you believe in you have to respect what other people believe in. (Don’t become what you say you hate.)

I feel that some in the gay community (not all) like Perez are trying to intimidate us into agreeing with them. People on this site are bashing someone for “stating” what they believe! (So for those of us who agree with her that sounds an alarm in our head) Soon it could be me who is asked the question.

I would not expect someone who believes in same sex marriage to say they did not agree with the idea, so why do so many people expect for us to just agree with them. I rest my case I respect everyone’s opinion and beliefs and when we vote and laws are passed, I may not agree but I will still respect the rights and feeling of others.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the distinction.

When one is in a loving committed relationship with another adult and wish to enter into a legal marriage with that person, there are a few requirements:

First, that other person must be able to understand the nature of the marriage contract and give their consent. An animal is not able to comprehend or consent to a marriage contract. Nor is a child. For these reasons alone, no state would ever be willing to grant marriage between an adult and either a child or an animal.

Second, unlike historical marriage, our current concept of marriage is a melding of two legal equals into one unit. Men do not acquire their brides from their fathers (as was tradition) nor are dowries provided so as to “care for” the burden of a bride. Most of the trappings of financial acquisition and chattle have died off, at least in Western marriage.

But a child or an animal cannot enter into a marriage as an equal. They do not have power or standing. This is also an argument against multiple party marriages; they remove the balance of power.

Now many people may have “oooh, ick, I don’t like it” reasons for excluding others from marriage. They may not like that it’s different races or religions (both illegal in the past) and they may not like that one is much older than the other or they may not like that one is just a ‘trophy’ marriage or they may not like that the two parties are the same sex. But in this country we have a tradition of letting folks decide for themselves whom they wish to marry and allowing people to have self determination. Your “oooh, ick” may seem like a good reason to you, but it ought not be law.

Ben in Oakland.

She may wonder about the boy-man she raised.
(how silly, most moms would be worried about you!)

It is very interesting to me that you feel people who do not agree with your opinion need help. (Yet the votes show your the minority) Lets say I actually believed I should marry my mom or animals (or whatever), I guess you would be better than me.

“devalue mariage”

I guess you think that your beliefs honor marriage, I don’t think your beliefs honor marriage, but hey i am the one with the problem… right? You should run for president.

And finally brother, I do get help… what scares me is people like you who think you are soooo right and have it all figured out.

“Bestiality isn’t pretty, unless you’re a Georgia mule f**ker running on a secesionist platform.”

I guess the sh*t you do is pretty…..

There are a lot of people in love with animals, maybe you should tell them they need help too. I’m pretty sure if they wanted rights that you didn’t agree with you would call them crazy too.

Your thoughts makes sense mine do not, how ironic.

Ravenbiker makes a good point; Carrie’s story might be worth following as an object lesson in the way the right treats its own. She will be used until her usefulness is gone (or the inevitable homoerotic photos surface), then she will be discarded. Her ignorance is not the only thing I pity her for. I guess the right is a little like the very Devil they imagine they’re fighting: you may think you’ve struck a mutually-advantageous deal with him, but in the end you are going to lose everything and he is going to have the last laugh.

but if you really want to marry your mom:

1) ask her. She may wonder about the boy-man she raised. I don’t know any gay person who would want to marry a parent. must be a strictly hetero thing, like child brides and polygamy.Oh wait, that’s right. Child brides and polygamy ARE a hetero thing.

2) get help.

3) I’m really so sorry to see that you devalue mariage so much that the minute i get married, (which I already did), you would want to marry your dog. It’s amazing to me that you have so little respect for the institution that you would want to marry your dog. no gay person I know would think that that is an appropriate thing to do.

4) get help.

5) Bestiality isn’t pretty, unless you’re a Georgia mule f**ker running on a secesionist platform. Google Neal horsely, or go here: http://www.examiner.com/x-1765-Underground-Examiner~y2009m4d29-Secessionist-ready-to-kill-own-son-to-dissolve-Union-Ill-do-it

6. Also amazing to me is that the only thing that seems to be preventing you from marrying your Mom or your lizard (a dog I can almost get, but a lizard?–sick) is that I am prevented from marrying the man I have shared my life with for so many years. That’s all that’s stopping you?

7. Get help.

8. and finally… honey, try to come up with an original thought that actually makes sense. I’m sure that you’re absolutely hugging yourself with glee over your cleverness.

9. get help