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	<title>Comments on: Sam Schulman Doesn&#8217;t Know Any Gay People</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: has to be kidding</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-46642</link>
		<dc:creator>has to be kidding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 05:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-46642</guid>
		<description>Trust me, he understands pre-marital sex, regretfully, i should know because apparently I f**d the brains right out of his head. And, we definitely never married.  Though I have to admit he can still spin a good sentence (even if it&#039;s rubbish).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trust me, he understands pre-marital sex, regretfully, i should know because apparently I f**d the brains right out of his head. And, we definitely never married.  Though I have to admit he can still spin a good sentence (even if it&#8217;s rubbish).</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Waldrop</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-42445</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Waldrop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-42445</guid>
		<description>As a possible final thought on this, I went and looked up the June 8th issue of The Weekly Standard to see if there was any response to Schulman&#039;s article. There wasn&#039;t, but I found something even more shocking: The Weekly Standard doesn&#039;t publish letters from readers. They&#039;re not interested in outside opinions, even when those opinions concur with their own.

The Weekly Standard is truly an echo-chamber. They criticize &quot;liberal&quot; publications like the New York Times or the Washington Post, but those publications offer a variety of opinions. 

Clearly the editors of the Weekly Standard have made up their minds. Don&#039;t confuse &#039;em with the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a possible final thought on this, I went and looked up the June 8th issue of The Weekly Standard to see if there was any response to Schulman&#8217;s article. There wasn&#8217;t, but I found something even more shocking: The Weekly Standard doesn&#8217;t publish letters from readers. They&#8217;re not interested in outside opinions, even when those opinions concur with their own.</p>
<p>The Weekly Standard is truly an echo-chamber. They criticize &#8220;liberal&#8221; publications like the New York Times or the Washington Post, but those publications offer a variety of opinions. </p>
<p>Clearly the editors of the Weekly Standard have made up their minds. Don&#8217;t confuse &#8216;em with the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41391</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 03:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41391</guid>
		<description>As always, Jason, right on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As always, Jason, right on.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41390</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 03:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41390</guid>
		<description>Richard, I used to be allured by the Civil-Unions-For-All idea, but it&#039;s impractical and unnecessary.

Christianity didn&#039;t invent marriage, nor do they (or any other religion) hold the patent on it. So why on earth should we surrender it to them?  We should not cower to bullies, no matter what form they take.

The tide is turning in our favor, to take on a new idea risks losing the support we do have (even from within our own community).  Civil-Unions-For-All is even less realistic than Marriage Equality, and has the potential to be used against us:

&quot;See, they want to completely destroy marriage!  They don&#039;t even want us saying the word in public!!&quot;

Does anyone recall the brouhaha when that (previously divorced) straight couple became irate over the &quot;Party A&quot; and &quot;Party B&quot; boxes on their marriage license?  They wrote in Bride and Groom and were told they couldn&#039;t edit the form.  Nobody said they couldn&#039;t call themselves Bride and Groom, but apparently a government form is no place for dull, pedantically accurate information. I doubt a move to throw out the word &quot;marriage&quot; for everyone would be seen as anything other than an attack.

A lot of people still don&#039;t understand the difference between Civil Marriage and the Religious Institution.  Do you honestly expect them to understand that their relationship is being rebranded as a Civil Union?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, I used to be allured by the Civil-Unions-For-All idea, but it&#8217;s impractical and unnecessary.</p>
<p>Christianity didn&#8217;t invent marriage, nor do they (or any other religion) hold the patent on it. So why on earth should we surrender it to them?  We should not cower to bullies, no matter what form they take.</p>
<p>The tide is turning in our favor, to take on a new idea risks losing the support we do have (even from within our own community).  Civil-Unions-For-All is even less realistic than Marriage Equality, and has the potential to be used against us:</p>
<p>&#8220;See, they want to completely destroy marriage!  They don&#8217;t even want us saying the word in public!!&#8221;</p>
<p>Does anyone recall the brouhaha when that (previously divorced) straight couple became irate over the &#8220;Party A&#8221; and &#8220;Party B&#8221; boxes on their marriage license?  They wrote in Bride and Groom and were told they couldn&#8217;t edit the form.  Nobody said they couldn&#8217;t call themselves Bride and Groom, but apparently a government form is no place for dull, pedantically accurate information. I doubt a move to throw out the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; for everyone would be seen as anything other than an attack.</p>
<p>A lot of people still don&#8217;t understand the difference between Civil Marriage and the Religious Institution.  Do you honestly expect them to understand that their relationship is being rebranded as a Civil Union?</p>
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		<title>By: lurker</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41384</link>
		<dc:creator>lurker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 02:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41384</guid>
		<description>yes, this discussion actually sheds some light on Sam&#039;s incoherent thought process. 

It&#039;s the normalizing effect of the word marriage not the equalizing effect that&#039;s so critical.  When you think of Bobby and Billy being married you think of their kinship ties, and their passage from bachelors to caring husbands, and their interconnections to the web of the human family. 

But thinking of Bobby and Billy as &quot;partners&quot; in a &quot;civil union&quot; then most people won&#039;t see those connections. You don&#039;t see them as two people that maintain loving responsible relationships with each other and their families. Apparently, Sam just thinks: fun, fun, fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes, this discussion actually sheds some light on Sam&#8217;s incoherent thought process. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the normalizing effect of the word marriage not the equalizing effect that&#8217;s so critical.  When you think of Bobby and Billy being married you think of their kinship ties, and their passage from bachelors to caring husbands, and their interconnections to the web of the human family. </p>
<p>But thinking of Bobby and Billy as &#8220;partners&#8221; in a &#8220;civil union&#8221; then most people won&#8217;t see those connections. You don&#8217;t see them as two people that maintain loving responsible relationships with each other and their families. Apparently, Sam just thinks: fun, fun, fun.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard W. Fitch</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41372</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard W. Fitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 23:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41372</guid>
		<description>This whole episode underlines again for me the need for government to get out of the &quot;marriage business&quot;. It is one of the last vestiges of the coterminous sway of the &quot;Church as Society&quot; from the days of Constantine to the Age of Enlightenment. Give religious bodies the right to control the sacraments of marriage, but clearly define all the legal rights and responsibilities of contracts between consenting adults who wish to establish themselves as an intimate social unit. It may take years to find the right &quot;name&quot; for this but the concept cannot no longer be evaded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole episode underlines again for me the need for government to get out of the &#8220;marriage business&#8221;. It is one of the last vestiges of the coterminous sway of the &#8220;Church as Society&#8221; from the days of Constantine to the Age of Enlightenment. Give religious bodies the right to control the sacraments of marriage, but clearly define all the legal rights and responsibilities of contracts between consenting adults who wish to establish themselves as an intimate social unit. It may take years to find the right &#8220;name&#8221; for this but the concept cannot no longer be evaded.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Waldrop</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41357</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Waldrop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 21:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41357</guid>
		<description>Ben, I&#039;m sorry I wasn&#039;t clear. In the future I&#039;ll use your argument because it makes it clear that gay people are normal, and the granting of marital &lt;i&gt;equality&lt;/i&gt; to same-sex couples recognizes that fact. 

Some people may think such parsing is nitpicking, but I appreciate you reminding me that the difference between &quot;equal&quot; and &quot;normal&quot; in many peoples&#039; minds is pretty big.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, I&#8217;m sorry I wasn&#8217;t clear. In the future I&#8217;ll use your argument because it makes it clear that gay people are normal, and the granting of marital <i>equality</i> to same-sex couples recognizes that fact. </p>
<p>Some people may think such parsing is nitpicking, but I appreciate you reminding me that the difference between &#8220;equal&#8221; and &#8220;normal&#8221; in many peoples&#8217; minds is pretty big.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41351</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 20:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41351</guid>
		<description>You are welcome, Christopher. But the key word is &quot;normal&quot;, not &quot;equal&quot;. and thank you, Jason. As always, you are spot on. (Did you see where I once wrote that you are my second favorite opinion maker)?

I want to write something at length about this, but frankly, I have too much to do right now. And I&#039;m tired.

but this much. Ironically enough, it was Alan chambers who gave mne my first inkling of this when he made some statement that had gay marriage been available to him, he might never have been able to straighten himself out--not that he has. There were some other comments around that that got me thinking.

Then there is a formerly gay guy posting at huffpost who actually clued me in on it. He said in his postings that he had no problems with gay people having DP or CU&#039;s, but marriage was going to be only for hets (and-wanna-be-hets-but-ain&#039;t)like him. He was fairly ugly on the subject in some ways, very very defensive. It was fairly clear to me that like chambers, he needed people to validate his decision to be heterosexual, yet unlike many ex-gays, he didn&#039;t insist on it for others.

but this he did insist on. And that is when it hit me that marriage would normalize gay people in his eyes, which would then invalidate his decision. but separate but equal would not. The supreme irony, of course, is that he is a black man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are welcome, Christopher. But the key word is &#8220;normal&#8221;, not &#8220;equal&#8221;. and thank you, Jason. As always, you are spot on. (Did you see where I once wrote that you are my second favorite opinion maker)?</p>
<p>I want to write something at length about this, but frankly, I have too much to do right now. And I&#8217;m tired.</p>
<p>but this much. Ironically enough, it was Alan chambers who gave mne my first inkling of this when he made some statement that had gay marriage been available to him, he might never have been able to straighten himself out&#8211;not that he has. There were some other comments around that that got me thinking.</p>
<p>Then there is a formerly gay guy posting at huffpost who actually clued me in on it. He said in his postings that he had no problems with gay people having DP or CU&#8217;s, but marriage was going to be only for hets (and-wanna-be-hets-but-ain&#8217;t)like him. He was fairly ugly on the subject in some ways, very very defensive. It was fairly clear to me that like chambers, he needed people to validate his decision to be heterosexual, yet unlike many ex-gays, he didn&#8217;t insist on it for others.</p>
<p>but this he did insist on. And that is when it hit me that marriage would normalize gay people in his eyes, which would then invalidate his decision. but separate but equal would not. The supreme irony, of course, is that he is a black man.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41345</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 20:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41345</guid>
		<description>Ben, I&#039;m all for it.
DP and CU cannot be equal to marriage.  There is an obvious logical flaw that you hinted at.
If we&#039;re good enough to have the rights, but not the name, then a Domestic Partnership/Civil Union is not, and CAN NOT be equal to a Marriage.
By creating a separate name, you create a subclass of people.  Those who&#039;s relationship is not good enough for the word &quot;marriage&quot;.

If we are equal, then there is no justifiable reason for a separate name.  It would be pointlessly redundant.  The fact that some people feel that a separate name is necessary indicates they do not feel we are equal.

To give over the full array of rights and responsibilities to same-sex couples, you would simply let them marry.  To give them everything but the name is to give 9/10ths of the equality.

This is not about calling an apple an orange.  This is about the fact that they are both fruits, but some people want to call one a Fruit and the other a Civil Plant Ovary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, I&#8217;m all for it.<br />
DP and CU cannot be equal to marriage.  There is an obvious logical flaw that you hinted at.<br />
If we&#8217;re good enough to have the rights, but not the name, then a Domestic Partnership/Civil Union is not, and CAN NOT be equal to a Marriage.<br />
By creating a separate name, you create a subclass of people.  Those who&#8217;s relationship is not good enough for the word &#8220;marriage&#8221;.</p>
<p>If we are equal, then there is no justifiable reason for a separate name.  It would be pointlessly redundant.  The fact that some people feel that a separate name is necessary indicates they do not feel we are equal.</p>
<p>To give over the full array of rights and responsibilities to same-sex couples, you would simply let them marry.  To give them everything but the name is to give 9/10ths of the equality.</p>
<p>This is not about calling an apple an orange.  This is about the fact that they are both fruits, but some people want to call one a Fruit and the other a Civil Plant Ovary.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Waldrop</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/05/26/11598/comment-page-1#comment-41340</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Waldrop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 20:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=11598#comment-41340</guid>
		<description>Ben, thank you. I&#039;ve talked to people who&#039;ve said they have no problem with giving same-sex couples all the rights and benefits of marriage but they just don&#039;t want to call it &quot;marriage&quot;. That bothered me, but I could never articulate why. Now I have an argument. Creating a special category for same-sex couples sets them up as separate but not necessarily equal. 

I don&#039;t know whether any organizations or businesses have taken the step of saying, &quot;we recognize marriages but not domestic partnerships&quot;, but, if they do, it will make the need to extend marriage--and call it marriage--to same-sex couples even more important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, thank you. I&#8217;ve talked to people who&#8217;ve said they have no problem with giving same-sex couples all the rights and benefits of marriage but they just don&#8217;t want to call it &#8220;marriage&#8221;. That bothered me, but I could never articulate why. Now I have an argument. Creating a special category for same-sex couples sets them up as separate but not necessarily equal. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know whether any organizations or businesses have taken the step of saying, &#8220;we recognize marriages but not domestic partnerships&#8221;, but, if they do, it will make the need to extend marriage&#8211;and call it marriage&#8211;to same-sex couples even more important.</p>
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