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	<title>Comments on: Mormons v. Marriage Equality</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Daisy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-46583</link>
		<dc:creator>Daisy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-46583</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m posting considerably late on this particular article, but I hope that somebody reads this nonetheless. I feel compelled to add my input because I&#039;m connected to this particular situation in a very personal way.

I know Brad and Alaina Stewart; my ex-husband is married to Brad&#039;s sister. I&#039;ve only seen them and interacted with them at family gatherings. My three children of course enjoy seeing their kids and other relatives-by-marriage; they are, amongst family, and other church members, what one would consider a perfect example of all the right LDS attributes and values, all the typical warm &#039;family fuzzies&#039;, etc.

Just before this issue of Time hit the newstands, I got an email from Brad&#039;s sister. She sent me the link for the article, and she sent it to other relatives/friends. I was encouraged to forward it along in turn and share it, so that others could see what a fine, sterling example of &quot;family values&quot; was being upheld by this praiseworthy and admirable family.

Yes, they were all proud and thoroughly unashamed. I no longer have the email, but I still remember the kicker: not only were they thoroughly convinced of the &#039;rightness&#039; of what they were doing, they were proud of having the whole family on display in the photos accompanying the article. The children&#039;s grandmother &quot;Nana&quot;, was especially pleased to see them featured, and was so proud of the photo of her grandson seated at the piano.

No, I am not making this up, and yes, it truly beggars any attempt at comprehension.

Anyway. I am in the process of leaving LD$ Inc; the only reason I haven&#039;t done so much sooner and aggressively is because I have a family of three children who go between my household, and a household where acts such as this are encouraged as positive role modeling and behavior. By the end of this year, it will be a done deal, and I will be out for good.

I already know how this is going to go over, but it&#039;s time for me, and thousands of others like me, to stand up and say: NO MORE.

Nothing is worth the complete and total sacrifice of one&#039;s integrity, honesty, decency, and accountability. It will be an ongoing and perhaps, a life-long process for my children to move beyond this institution themselves, but they are strongly individual and intelligent; they have a mother who has many gay friends and professional associates that are openly supported. They associate with gay and lesbian friends at school, and have a few friends who have two moms or dads.

The great hope we all have for the future, is our youth. And their intelligence. We have the internet, and access to information that used to be hidden and kept in the dark. Young people like my children have the opportunity to balance what they are told by reading the actual facts. Like it or not, the LDS church will continue to lose its best and brightest, because the light shines in the darkness, exposing the hypocrisy, deception, the lies, and the apalling bigotry and hatred that has existed under the surface of this organization since the beginning.

To all those who have been rejected, lied to, harassed, manipulated, threatened, or cruelly, cruelly damaged, by the reprehensible doctrines, actions, and viewpoints of the LDS Church, its leadership, and individual members, I apologize from the depths of my being. 

I have the most profound respect and admiration for so many of the articles and comments written by those at Box Turtle; I&#039;ve been reading them quietly and anonymously for some time, and you have opened my eyes and enlarged my understanding more than I could ever have imagined. My gratitude is too deep to properly express.

Blessed be, for all the good you have done, and continue to do, for gays, lesbians, bi-sexual and transgendered individuals, and all the straight men and women who become your allies, one day and one person at a time.

Keep up the good work, and know that you   have a true friend and supporter in me, 
~Marguerite L. Morris~</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m posting considerably late on this particular article, but I hope that somebody reads this nonetheless. I feel compelled to add my input because I&#8217;m connected to this particular situation in a very personal way.</p>
<p>I know Brad and Alaina Stewart; my ex-husband is married to Brad&#8217;s sister. I&#8217;ve only seen them and interacted with them at family gatherings. My three children of course enjoy seeing their kids and other relatives-by-marriage; they are, amongst family, and other church members, what one would consider a perfect example of all the right LDS attributes and values, all the typical warm &#8216;family fuzzies&#8217;, etc.</p>
<p>Just before this issue of Time hit the newstands, I got an email from Brad&#8217;s sister. She sent me the link for the article, and she sent it to other relatives/friends. I was encouraged to forward it along in turn and share it, so that others could see what a fine, sterling example of &#8220;family values&#8221; was being upheld by this praiseworthy and admirable family.</p>
<p>Yes, they were all proud and thoroughly unashamed. I no longer have the email, but I still remember the kicker: not only were they thoroughly convinced of the &#8216;rightness&#8217; of what they were doing, they were proud of having the whole family on display in the photos accompanying the article. The children&#8217;s grandmother &#8220;Nana&#8221;, was especially pleased to see them featured, and was so proud of the photo of her grandson seated at the piano.</p>
<p>No, I am not making this up, and yes, it truly beggars any attempt at comprehension.</p>
<p>Anyway. I am in the process of leaving LD$ Inc; the only reason I haven&#8217;t done so much sooner and aggressively is because I have a family of three children who go between my household, and a household where acts such as this are encouraged as positive role modeling and behavior. By the end of this year, it will be a done deal, and I will be out for good.</p>
<p>I already know how this is going to go over, but it&#8217;s time for me, and thousands of others like me, to stand up and say: NO MORE.</p>
<p>Nothing is worth the complete and total sacrifice of one&#8217;s integrity, honesty, decency, and accountability. It will be an ongoing and perhaps, a life-long process for my children to move beyond this institution themselves, but they are strongly individual and intelligent; they have a mother who has many gay friends and professional associates that are openly supported. They associate with gay and lesbian friends at school, and have a few friends who have two moms or dads.</p>
<p>The great hope we all have for the future, is our youth. And their intelligence. We have the internet, and access to information that used to be hidden and kept in the dark. Young people like my children have the opportunity to balance what they are told by reading the actual facts. Like it or not, the LDS church will continue to lose its best and brightest, because the light shines in the darkness, exposing the hypocrisy, deception, the lies, and the apalling bigotry and hatred that has existed under the surface of this organization since the beginning.</p>
<p>To all those who have been rejected, lied to, harassed, manipulated, threatened, or cruelly, cruelly damaged, by the reprehensible doctrines, actions, and viewpoints of the LDS Church, its leadership, and individual members, I apologize from the depths of my being. </p>
<p>I have the most profound respect and admiration for so many of the articles and comments written by those at Box Turtle; I&#8217;ve been reading them quietly and anonymously for some time, and you have opened my eyes and enlarged my understanding more than I could ever have imagined. My gratitude is too deep to properly express.</p>
<p>Blessed be, for all the good you have done, and continue to do, for gays, lesbians, bi-sexual and transgendered individuals, and all the straight men and women who become your allies, one day and one person at a time.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work, and know that you   have a true friend and supporter in me,<br />
~Marguerite L. Morris~</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42898</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42898</guid>
		<description>Scott P,
I never said anything about pissing nor corn flakes to you.  You had better check who said what to whom.  I&#039;m thinking I have been confused with someone else or mischaracterized.  

I&#039;m not being disingenuous.  I&#039;m only responding to slander.  You understand you can&#039;t misconstrue things about me and then not provide the evidence so I can defend myself.  And then you say: I&#039;m &quot;disingenuous&quot;? 

That&#039;s not fair.  

Put up or shut up and since you haven&#039;t shut up and continued to insult me with the &quot;man up&quot; comment...you certainly won&#039;t get any rapport with me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott P,<br />
I never said anything about pissing nor corn flakes to you.  You had better check who said what to whom.  I&#8217;m thinking I have been confused with someone else or mischaracterized.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not being disingenuous.  I&#8217;m only responding to slander.  You understand you can&#8217;t misconstrue things about me and then not provide the evidence so I can defend myself.  And then you say: I&#8217;m &#8220;disingenuous&#8221;? </p>
<p>That&#8217;s not fair.  </p>
<p>Put up or shut up and since you haven&#8217;t shut up and continued to insult me with the &#8220;man up&#8221; comment&#8230;you certainly won&#8217;t get any rapport with me.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott P.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42895</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42895</guid>
		<description>cowboy, it was during the Prop. 8 campaign last year. I  complained about how the typical response of Utahns to any complaints about the LDS Church is greeted with &quot;If you don&#039;t like it here, then leave&quot;, when I said that I left to get away from the dominant attitudes brought on by the Mormon Church you took me to task for it in several exchanges here. I remember the phrase &quot;Who pissed in your corn flakes&quot; coming from you. I don&#039;t have chapter and verse here and I didn&#039;t print out every slight. It&#039;s disingenuous of you to pretend that we didn&#039;t get into a few heated arguments. But if you&#039;re going to be unwilling to &quot;man up&quot; to the things you said I&#039;ll drop the matter. I was actually beginning to have a rapport with you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cowboy, it was during the Prop. 8 campaign last year. I  complained about how the typical response of Utahns to any complaints about the LDS Church is greeted with &#8220;If you don&#8217;t like it here, then leave&#8221;, when I said that I left to get away from the dominant attitudes brought on by the Mormon Church you took me to task for it in several exchanges here. I remember the phrase &#8220;Who pissed in your corn flakes&#8221; coming from you. I don&#8217;t have chapter and verse here and I didn&#8217;t print out every slight. It&#8217;s disingenuous of you to pretend that we didn&#8217;t get into a few heated arguments. But if you&#8217;re going to be unwilling to &#8220;man up&#8221; to the things you said I&#8217;ll drop the matter. I was actually beginning to have a rapport with you.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42893</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42893</guid>
		<description>Scott P,
Cite the specific examples.  You must give actual references where I called you a bigot.  I won&#039;t comment on unsubstantiated claims and if you don&#039;t provide the evidence I have to ask for immediate retraction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott P,<br />
Cite the specific examples.  You must give actual references where I called you a bigot.  I won&#8217;t comment on unsubstantiated claims and if you don&#8217;t provide the evidence I have to ask for immediate retraction.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott P.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42889</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42889</guid>
		<description>You called me a bigot and prejudiced several times, as well as a fool. You made it quite clear that I was a bigot to use the term &quot;Mormons&quot;, not &quot;some Mormons&quot;, or the Mormon leadership.&quot; Ring any bells? Sauce for the gander is sauce for the other gander.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You called me a bigot and prejudiced several times, as well as a fool. You made it quite clear that I was a bigot to use the term &#8220;Mormons&#8221;, not &#8220;some Mormons&#8221;, or the Mormon leadership.&#8221; Ring any bells? Sauce for the gander is sauce for the other gander.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42885</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42885</guid>
		<description>Scott P,
Cite me examples of where I called you a plethora of names and then I&#039;ll comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott P,<br />
Cite me examples of where I called you a plethora of names and then I&#8217;ll comment.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Scott P.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42874</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42874</guid>
		<description>Wow, cowboy, you ripped me a new a**hole when I pointed out the exact same thing. Because I made &quot;generalizations&quot; you called me a plethora of names. Care to explain why it&#039;s okay for you to make sweeping statements but not me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, cowboy, you ripped me a new a**hole when I pointed out the exact same thing. Because I made &#8220;generalizations&#8221; you called me a plethora of names. Care to explain why it&#8217;s okay for you to make sweeping statements but not me?</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42872</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42872</guid>
		<description>Laurel,

Thanks.  I did read the original article after I made that orignial post. (I was just so pleased to see the whole Mormon thing laid out for me).  Stewart is a real piece of work.  While lamenting her &quot;on the out&#039;s&quot; predicament, she led an ugly and dishonest campaign against an elementary school tolerance program designed to decrease school bullying. She lost, thankfully.  

She&#039;s not sorry.  She has no regrets.  She loves the spotlight and loves being the public face of anti-gay hate in Alameda.  Alameda is a liberal place though and we&#039;ve had others before her.  The previous haters were at Central Baptist Church.  Their leader eventually stepped down and the new guy isn&#039;t anywhere near so vocal.  Now it is the Mormons that we will have to focus on.  Trust me, the average member won&#039;t like the attention and will soon tire of this disgusting bigot&#039;s antics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurel,</p>
<p>Thanks.  I did read the original article after I made that orignial post. (I was just so pleased to see the whole Mormon thing laid out for me).  Stewart is a real piece of work.  While lamenting her &#8220;on the out&#8217;s&#8221; predicament, she led an ugly and dishonest campaign against an elementary school tolerance program designed to decrease school bullying. She lost, thankfully.  </p>
<p>She&#8217;s not sorry.  She has no regrets.  She loves the spotlight and loves being the public face of anti-gay hate in Alameda.  Alameda is a liberal place though and we&#8217;ve had others before her.  The previous haters were at Central Baptist Church.  Their leader eventually stepped down and the new guy isn&#8217;t anywhere near so vocal.  Now it is the Mormons that we will have to focus on.  Trust me, the average member won&#8217;t like the attention and will soon tire of this disgusting bigot&#8217;s antics.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurel</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42870</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42870</guid>
		<description>&quot;The second quote didn’t make clear which woman was concerned about the backlash from their hate campaign. I am guessing it is Teuscher, since Stewart led the most recent campaign of hate against a school tolerance initiative.&quot;

Actually, John, if you read the article in it&#039;s entirety it was Stewart who made the second quote, not Teuscher. No need to guess. Van Biema didn&#039;t hide anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The second quote didn’t make clear which woman was concerned about the backlash from their hate campaign. I am guessing it is Teuscher, since Stewart led the most recent campaign of hate against a school tolerance initiative.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, John, if you read the article in it&#8217;s entirety it was Stewart who made the second quote, not Teuscher. No need to guess. Van Biema didn&#8217;t hide anything.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/06/16/12179/comment-page-1#comment-42814</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=12179#comment-42814</guid>
		<description>Infuriating, is putting it mildly, ADJ.   Mormons can’t recognize the obvious.  They’re racists.  They’re bigots.  I know.  I work and live amongst them.  

Here is how I can qualify saying Mormons are racists:  Even though they (my family, my neighbors and my co-workers) say they welcome African-Americans into the LDS Church and they can receive the full benefits of membership and Priesthood callings…the LDS Church has never explained or even &lt;b&gt; officially&lt;/b&gt; apologized for its past racist policies.  Never apologized!   Keep telling your Mormon “friends” they can’t ignore the past and wish it had never happened.  That doesn’t absolve the racist issue. 

Plus, I have an African-American secretary who can vouch for that.  She has lived in Utah for most of her life.  She can tell you almost daily examples of some subtle and some not-so-subtle experiences she has had.  There are still vestiges of the Mormon racist heritage here.   

Mormons are bigots: Really!  You can say that to their faces and they won’t flinch one bit. In their close-mindedness they mask their bigotry by projecting it as only following their Prophet.  They can’t see the obvious civil-rights issue at stake here.  Ask the next Mormon you meet why gays cannot marry and they will give you a response that won’t pass any civil law muster.  My co-workers tell me I can have all the benefits of being married if I find a girl to shack up and play pretend love.  Perhaps they don’t understand what bigot means.  

But I need to mention:  There are Mormons who are unhappy with how this gay-marriage brouhaha has played out.  I get glimmers of hope from reading mormonsformarriage.com, from reading opinions from lawyers who are Mormon and question the legality and the tactics of supporters of anti-gay propositions.  I’m encouraged by public pronouncements from high-profile leaders (Utah Governor Huntsman) who can recognize where equality is needed for its gay population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Infuriating, is putting it mildly, ADJ.   Mormons can’t recognize the obvious.  They’re racists.  They’re bigots.  I know.  I work and live amongst them.  </p>
<p>Here is how I can qualify saying Mormons are racists:  Even though they (my family, my neighbors and my co-workers) say they welcome African-Americans into the LDS Church and they can receive the full benefits of membership and Priesthood callings…the LDS Church has never explained or even <b> officially</b> apologized for its past racist policies.  Never apologized!   Keep telling your Mormon “friends” they can’t ignore the past and wish it had never happened.  That doesn’t absolve the racist issue. </p>
<p>Plus, I have an African-American secretary who can vouch for that.  She has lived in Utah for most of her life.  She can tell you almost daily examples of some subtle and some not-so-subtle experiences she has had.  There are still vestiges of the Mormon racist heritage here.   </p>
<p>Mormons are bigots: Really!  You can say that to their faces and they won’t flinch one bit. In their close-mindedness they mask their bigotry by projecting it as only following their Prophet.  They can’t see the obvious civil-rights issue at stake here.  Ask the next Mormon you meet why gays cannot marry and they will give you a response that won’t pass any civil law muster.  My co-workers tell me I can have all the benefits of being married if I find a girl to shack up and play pretend love.  Perhaps they don’t understand what bigot means.  </p>
<p>But I need to mention:  There are Mormons who are unhappy with how this gay-marriage brouhaha has played out.  I get glimmers of hope from reading mormonsformarriage.com, from reading opinions from lawyers who are Mormon and question the legality and the tactics of supporters of anti-gay propositions.  I’m encouraged by public pronouncements from high-profile leaders (Utah Governor Huntsman) who can recognize where equality is needed for its gay population.</p>
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