We will always face the bigots the haters, the fearful. We can’t do anything about that. but as i say, it is a waste of effort to try to reach them. Lewt’s ofcus on the decent people, instead.

That’s true, but they achieved equality by fighting off the people who oppressed them, not declaring their enmity with abstract concepts.

What’s not OK, in my opinion, is a lack of discipline and enforcement against those who abuse the process and use it to hurl the same old prejudice and smug spiritual self-satisfaction.

Also, as experience and statistics both show, people who know gay people are less likely to vote against them. Prop. 8 succeeded becuase our side refused to show anything about us that their side could relate to.

I’m not sure I understand your logic here. I mean, racial minorities haven’t been able to hide in any closet, but visibility didn’t (and doesn’t) cancel out racism.

But just a brief thought or two.

This thing is very much like the coming out process, but on a much larger scale. We are seeking to become known– as Timothy would say, working on their ignorance– to people who don’t know us and don’t know anything ABOUT US. Some are just bigots, some are just haters, some have their own issues to work out (telephone call for TH, AC, RT, and LC. you know who you are.) We are NEVER going to reach the bulk of these people, because they are irretrievably poisoned by hate, or fear, or stupidity, or authoritarian religious belief.

And some– I think a great many– are just too ignorant and not conscious enough to question their assumptions and beliefs in the light of all their values. Coming out to them– what Timothy and Wendy are calling for when they talk about engagement– is what we as gay people must do with ALL people, all the time.

The enemy is not the religious right, social conservatives, or even religio-bigots like Freddie Phelps-Krueger and his ilk. The enemy is the closet, and always has been. Where the perceived enemy continues to make their mistake is to keep talking about it, because that provides the exposure that will eventually destroy the closet.

People talking! what a concept! And anathema to the closet mentality.

I absolutely agree that the perceived enemy has declared war on us, and has told a number of very vicious lies with the full intent to harm us as much as possible, often while hiding behind The Children (TM), religion, the family, or God. But they are not the problem.

Because this really about the closet, WE ARE THE PROBLEM. As I wrote in another context: “The closet is about living a lie. It IS a lie, it is based on lies, and it engenders lies. It distorts, perverts, and debases everything it touches, as the sorry life of Ted Haggard will attest. And like all lies, the bigger it is, the longer it is told, the more damage it ultimately causes…There is only one answer to a lie, and that is the truth. By hiding us, hiding our families, we are complicit in this lie. Jesus said “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” So when do we start telling the truth?”

It’s about US, not about THEM. Let me repeat: it is about us standing up for ourselves, by ourselves, and AS ourselves. I actually think most people are pretty decent, and will act decently if given the opportunity to do so. That is what Timothy and Wendy are suggesting– nothing more. giving them the opportunity to be decent

If we don’t forgive and give them an opportunity to change, they won’t. That is what coming out is always about– giving people, or at least our perceptions of them, an opportunity to change.

At the same time, though I’m a great believer in forgiveness, I think it is often a bad idea to forget. They have inflicted a great deal of harm on us, literally for centuries, for the crime of either being different, or scaring the hell out of them– take your pick. We would be foolish to forget it– if for no other reason, to be able to point out in the future the lessons of the bad behavior in the past. (Revenge is a dish best served cold). But we would be equally foolish to keep the pain of that hurt from helping either party move beyond it and creating a better world.