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	<title>Comments on: The Denial Of Alan Chambers</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-47314</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 21:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-47314</guid>
		<description>&quot;And you know what? I love my life of denial&quot;

With minor changes in word order and little change in sense this reads &quot;I love my denial of life.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And you know what? I love my life of denial&#8221;</p>
<p>With minor changes in word order and little change in sense this reads &#8220;I love my denial of life.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-47019</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 20:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-47019</guid>
		<description>William,

I recently compared Exodus&#039; message to an infomercial. 

&quot;I made $50,000 in the first month working from home!! (&lt;em&gt;reinactment - actual results may vary&lt;/em&gt;)&quot;

The ex-gay I was conversing with wasn&#039;t much amused by the comparison.  But it is pretty close.  Exodus doesn&#039;t exactly &quot;promise&quot; reorientation but they do everything this side of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William,</p>
<p>I recently compared Exodus&#8217; message to an infomercial. </p>
<p>&#8220;I made $50,000 in the first month working from home!! (<em>reinactment &#8211; actual results may vary</em>)&#8221;</p>
<p>The ex-gay I was conversing with wasn&#8217;t much amused by the comparison.  But it is pretty close.  Exodus doesn&#8217;t exactly &#8220;promise&#8221; reorientation but they do everything this side of it.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46958</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 11:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46958</guid>
		<description>Yes, Timothy, I&#039;m sure that you’re right. This accounts, no doubt, for 

(1)	books with misleading titles such as “Leaving Homosexuality” and 

(2)	statements like “For thirty years, Exodus International has offered hope and help to people seeking freedom from homosexuality. We believe and we have seen in thousands of lives that this freedom is possible….”; “you don&#039;t have to be gay”; and “What you are really asking is whether there is realistic hope for change for men and women who do not want their sexual orientation to be homosexual. And the answer to that is yes!”

It’s no excuse for Exodus to plead that its message is being misunderstood, since that message has been deliberately framed in terms calculated to lead to such misunderstanding. In other words, it’s deliberate misrepresentation.

The decisive question about the ex-gay movement is (if I may be forgiven for using a cliché current in the UK at the moment), does it do what it says on the tin? The answer to that has to be no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Timothy, I&#8217;m sure that you’re right. This accounts, no doubt, for </p>
<p>(1)	books with misleading titles such as “Leaving Homosexuality” and </p>
<p>(2)	statements like “For thirty years, Exodus International has offered hope and help to people seeking freedom from homosexuality. We believe and we have seen in thousands of lives that this freedom is possible….”; “you don&#8217;t have to be gay”; and “What you are really asking is whether there is realistic hope for change for men and women who do not want their sexual orientation to be homosexual. And the answer to that is yes!”</p>
<p>It’s no excuse for Exodus to plead that its message is being misunderstood, since that message has been deliberately framed in terms calculated to lead to such misunderstanding. In other words, it’s deliberate misrepresentation.</p>
<p>The decisive question about the ex-gay movement is (if I may be forgiven for using a cliché current in the UK at the moment), does it do what it says on the tin? The answer to that has to be no.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46881</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46881</guid>
		<description>William,

I suspect Alan&#039;s message is complicated by his politics.  While an honest message such as you propose would benefit those seeking to live according to a conservative Christian sexual ethic, it would not well serve those who seek to reduce, block, or eliminate civil equality for gay people and who use &quot;they choose to stay gay&quot; as their justification for discrimination.

Alan is every bit as much a political anti-gay activist as he is a minister to those seeking to not live as a gay person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William,</p>
<p>I suspect Alan&#8217;s message is complicated by his politics.  While an honest message such as you propose would benefit those seeking to live according to a conservative Christian sexual ethic, it would not well serve those who seek to reduce, block, or eliminate civil equality for gay people and who use &#8220;they choose to stay gay&#8221; as their justification for discrimination.</p>
<p>Alan is every bit as much a political anti-gay activist as he is a minister to those seeking to not live as a gay person.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46875</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46875</guid>
		<description>Why does Alan Chambers’s message need to be draped in such a lot of tiresome verbiage? He should just state it plainly: it is possible, if you are gay, to lead a life of perpetual sexual abstinence, and although this is difficult, it may be easier if you allow yourself to be persuaded that it is what God demands of you, but it won’t change your sexual orientation. Anyone can understand that.

But perhaps the simple truth won&#039;t help to sell Exodus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does Alan Chambers’s message need to be draped in such a lot of tiresome verbiage? He should just state it plainly: it is possible, if you are gay, to lead a life of perpetual sexual abstinence, and although this is difficult, it may be easier if you allow yourself to be persuaded that it is what God demands of you, but it won’t change your sexual orientation. Anyone can understand that.</p>
<p>But perhaps the simple truth won&#8217;t help to sell Exodus.</p>
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		<title>By: Ephilei</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46874</link>
		<dc:creator>Ephilei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 17:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46874</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Exodus will change. But I&#039;m holding out hope that Chambers will eventually leave Exodus, realizing that reparative therapy doesn&#039;t work just as he keeps hinting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Exodus will change. But I&#8217;m holding out hope that Chambers will eventually leave Exodus, realizing that reparative therapy doesn&#8217;t work just as he keeps hinting.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46818</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46818</guid>
		<description>Mr. Rush wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;It’s amazing how many men there are who have come out of fake marriages or are still in them...&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just last week I had a worker in my building admit to me he is in one of those fake marriages.  

And you hit the nail on the head with: &lt;blockquote&gt; &quot;Or maybe faking it is okay when it’s with someone else’s daughter.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Who would want their daughter to marry a guy with same-sex-attraction.  

So, their only alternative for gays is celibacy. Lifelong celibacy. I wouldn&#039;t doubt they may even suggest eunuchism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Rush wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;It’s amazing how many men there are who have come out of fake marriages or are still in them&#8230;&#8221; </p></blockquote>
<p>Just last week I had a worker in my building admit to me he is in one of those fake marriages.  </p>
<p>And you hit the nail on the head with:<br />
<blockquote> &#8220;Or maybe faking it is okay when it’s with someone else’s daughter.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
<p>Who would want their daughter to marry a guy with same-sex-attraction.  </p>
<p>So, their only alternative for gays is celibacy. Lifelong celibacy. I wouldn&#8217;t doubt they may even suggest eunuchism.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46795</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46795</guid>
		<description>Denial can, as Chambers says, be a good thing. Being &lt;i&gt;in denial&lt;/i&gt;, however, is a rather different kettle of fish.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denial can, as Chambers says, be a good thing. Being <i>in denial</i>, however, is a rather different kettle of fish.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Rush</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46745</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Rush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:46:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46745</guid>
		<description>AJD wrote, &lt;blockquote&gt;For them, it’s totally reasonable to &lt;b&gt;expect us to date members of the opposite sex for whom we lack feeling&lt;/b&gt; or to just remain celibate altogether, while heterosexuals can have satisfying romantic and sexual lives.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I would like to ask how they would feel about their daughters dating a homo secretly trying to fake the hetero. That is a very real possibility. Relationships are difficult enough without the burden of one partner trying to fake it. It&#039;s amazing how many men there are who have come out of fake marriages or are still in them while indulging in homo-sex on the side.

Surely a rational parent would see that society is better when homo men link up with each other rather than deceive their daughters. Or maybe faking it is okay when it&#039;s with someone else&#039;s daughter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AJD wrote,<br />
<blockquote>For them, it’s totally reasonable to <b>expect us to date members of the opposite sex for whom we lack feeling</b> or to just remain celibate altogether, while heterosexuals can have satisfying romantic and sexual lives.</p></blockquote>
<p>I would like to ask how they would feel about their daughters dating a homo secretly trying to fake the hetero. That is a very real possibility. Relationships are difficult enough without the burden of one partner trying to fake it. It&#8217;s amazing how many men there are who have come out of fake marriages or are still in them while indulging in homo-sex on the side.</p>
<p>Surely a rational parent would see that society is better when homo men link up with each other rather than deceive their daughters. Or maybe faking it is okay when it&#8217;s with someone else&#8217;s daughter.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/29/13596/comment-page-1#comment-46741</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=13596#comment-46741</guid>
		<description>Change is possible. I guess if you can&#039;t define change clearly, or possible clearly, all you have left is what the definition of &quot;is&quot; is. Who knew that Alan Chambers and Bill Clinton were sleeping in the same ideological bed?

Given AC credit for some kind of honesty. At least he doesn&#039;t pretend that he is straight, he only acts straight, or as straight as a man who is actually gay can act.

His dishonesty lies not in how he chooses to live his life. His dishonesty lies in his failure to acknowledge his support of Exodus&#039;s lies and political activism against gay people who do not accept Exodus&#039;s views about either religious belief, G&#039;s will, or homosexuality.

Like a certain other self-hating wanna-be-straight-but-ain&#039;t writer I can think of, the animosity of the ex-gay industry is a mirror image of the animosity towards oneself as a gay man, and isj ustified on that basis. 

As always, Transactional Analysis-- I&#039;m not OK, and you can&#039;t be either lest either of us challenge my self-perceptions-- explains and predicts it all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Change is possible. I guess if you can&#8217;t define change clearly, or possible clearly, all you have left is what the definition of &#8220;is&#8221; is. Who knew that Alan Chambers and Bill Clinton were sleeping in the same ideological bed?</p>
<p>Given AC credit for some kind of honesty. At least he doesn&#8217;t pretend that he is straight, he only acts straight, or as straight as a man who is actually gay can act.</p>
<p>His dishonesty lies not in how he chooses to live his life. His dishonesty lies in his failure to acknowledge his support of Exodus&#8217;s lies and political activism against gay people who do not accept Exodus&#8217;s views about either religious belief, G&#8217;s will, or homosexuality.</p>
<p>Like a certain other self-hating wanna-be-straight-but-ain&#8217;t writer I can think of, the animosity of the ex-gay industry is a mirror image of the animosity towards oneself as a gay man, and isj ustified on that basis. </p>
<p>As always, Transactional Analysis&#8211; I&#8217;m not OK, and you can&#8217;t be either lest either of us challenge my self-perceptions&#8211; explains and predicts it all.</p>
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