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	<title>Comments on: Lutherans to Vote on Gay Clergy</title>
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	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Terence</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/08/17/14078/comment-page-1#comment-48013</link>
		<dc:creator>Terence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>One of the great things about this resolution is that whether we win or lose the vote on gay clergy, we win overall.

This is because both sides have stated clearly that a big part of their arguments will be on the Scriptural basis of traditional teaching.  This is much weaker than most people realise.

A calm and rational debate (which is likely with Lutherans) will inevitably weaken the case of all those, Lutherans Catholics and Fundies alike, who routinely yell &quot;Scripture says...&quot; without stopping to look closely at what it really says:

&quot;Sodom&quot; has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality;
Two verses from Leviticus are part of a Jweish purity code - like circumcision, dietary laws, and shaving - which in any case do not apply to Gentiles;
Two verses in the New Testament are of unclear translation, and may refer to temple prostitutes, rather than to loving relationships.

That leaves exactly one verse that may be genuinely applicable - but it speaks of &quot;unnatural&quot; relationships.  What, exactly, should we consider &quot;unnatural&quot;?
For us, it may well be heterosexual intercourse that is unnatural.

On the other hand, there are abundant supportive passages:  The story of Philip, the Ethiopian Eunuch, makes clear that sexual minorities are welcome in teh church; the healing of the Roman Centurion&#039;s &quot;paidion&quot; shows that Christ himself was accepting of same sex lovers. (A centurion&#039;s &#039;paidion&#039; will ahve been a slave.  Roman soldiers abroad were unmarried, and slaves were routinely used for sexual purposes.)See &quot;The Gospels&#039; Queer Values&quot; at Queeringthechurch.wordpress.com for more</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the great things about this resolution is that whether we win or lose the vote on gay clergy, we win overall.</p>
<p>This is because both sides have stated clearly that a big part of their arguments will be on the Scriptural basis of traditional teaching.  This is much weaker than most people realise.</p>
<p>A calm and rational debate (which is likely with Lutherans) will inevitably weaken the case of all those, Lutherans Catholics and Fundies alike, who routinely yell &#8220;Scripture says&#8230;&#8221; without stopping to look closely at what it really says:</p>
<p>&#8220;Sodom&#8221; has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality;<br />
Two verses from Leviticus are part of a Jweish purity code &#8211; like circumcision, dietary laws, and shaving &#8211; which in any case do not apply to Gentiles;<br />
Two verses in the New Testament are of unclear translation, and may refer to temple prostitutes, rather than to loving relationships.</p>
<p>That leaves exactly one verse that may be genuinely applicable &#8211; but it speaks of &#8220;unnatural&#8221; relationships.  What, exactly, should we consider &#8220;unnatural&#8221;?<br />
For us, it may well be heterosexual intercourse that is unnatural.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there are abundant supportive passages:  The story of Philip, the Ethiopian Eunuch, makes clear that sexual minorities are welcome in teh church; the healing of the Roman Centurion&#8217;s &#8220;paidion&#8221; shows that Christ himself was accepting of same sex lovers. (A centurion&#8217;s &#8216;paidion&#8217; will ahve been a slave.  Roman soldiers abroad were unmarried, and slaves were routinely used for sexual purposes.)See &#8220;The Gospels&#8217; Queer Values&#8221; at Queeringthechurch.wordpress.com for more</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/08/17/14078/comment-page-1#comment-47994</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I wonder if this will indeed come to pass...

I&#039;ve seen polls of the ELCA, and it seems that the membership is ideologically very broad, from near-agnostics to near-fundamentalists and everything in between.

Which could make it very difficult to achieve consensus on this.  Although if they do, it will make it easier to stay within the denomination.  I was thinking about going Episcopalian or UCC, but maybe I&#039;ll wait.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if this will indeed come to pass&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen polls of the ELCA, and it seems that the membership is ideologically very broad, from near-agnostics to near-fundamentalists and everything in between.</p>
<p>Which could make it very difficult to achieve consensus on this.  Although if they do, it will make it easier to stay within the denomination.  I was thinking about going Episcopalian or UCC, but maybe I&#8217;ll wait.</p>
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		<title>By: Piper</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/08/17/14078/comment-page-1#comment-47991</link>
		<dc:creator>Piper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 22:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, as an ELCA member I think this is a long time coming.  yeah, Lutherans take our own sweet time doing anything, but it gets old sometimes.  Io know for a fact my home church would probably think about defecting if this passes, but we&#039;d eventually stay with the church.  We simply are an older congregation and some of the older members are stuck in their ways.  

My synod is one of the more conservative synods, but I think we&#039;d back the church, we&#039;ve been debating this issue since I was in Junior High, and I&#039;ve participated in some of the debates and personally seen minds changed due to thoughtful and respectful dialogue.  

On another note, my pastor is taking a vacation this week, I was wondering why!  and now I know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as an ELCA member I think this is a long time coming.  yeah, Lutherans take our own sweet time doing anything, but it gets old sometimes.  Io know for a fact my home church would probably think about defecting if this passes, but we&#8217;d eventually stay with the church.  We simply are an older congregation and some of the older members are stuck in their ways.  </p>
<p>My synod is one of the more conservative synods, but I think we&#8217;d back the church, we&#8217;ve been debating this issue since I was in Junior High, and I&#8217;ve participated in some of the debates and personally seen minds changed due to thoughtful and respectful dialogue.  </p>
<p>On another note, my pastor is taking a vacation this week, I was wondering why!  and now I know!</p>
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