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	<title>Comments on: Washington Judge OK&#8217;s Referendum 71 Certification</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Burr</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-50022</link>
		<dc:creator>Burr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-50022</guid>
		<description>Yeah but who turns out more in non-presidential elections? Older, conservative voters.

Let&#039;s see if anyone is still excited to vote now that Obama isn&#039;t on the ballot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah but who turns out more in non-presidential elections? Older, conservative voters.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s see if anyone is still excited to vote now that Obama isn&#8217;t on the ballot.</p>
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		<title>By: deshard</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-50019</link>
		<dc:creator>deshard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 18:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-50019</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s remember, WA is not CA. WA (and ME) learned HUGE lessons from Equality-CA&#039;s Prop 8 mess (terrible outreach, terrible ads that did not smack down the lies from the National Org. for Marriage).

Sure, Western WA is more liberal and Eastern WA is more conservative...but keep in mind, these polls are conducted via LAND LINES. Who has those? Older voters. Who doesn&#039;t use land lines? Younger voters. Whose being left out of these polls? Right. Younger voters.

In WA, voters under age 35 OVERWHELMINGLY support not just expanded DP benefits, but full same-sex marriage.

Doesn&#039;t mean the fight has been won. Of course not. But Ref 71 proponents follow Maine&#039;s early lead in strong, effective ads to counter the distortion and outright lies of the anti crowd, the results will be extremely favorable for the Ref 71 folks.

I predict Ref 71 will pass by over 60%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s remember, WA is not CA. WA (and ME) learned HUGE lessons from Equality-CA&#8217;s Prop 8 mess (terrible outreach, terrible ads that did not smack down the lies from the National Org. for Marriage).</p>
<p>Sure, Western WA is more liberal and Eastern WA is more conservative&#8230;but keep in mind, these polls are conducted via LAND LINES. Who has those? Older voters. Who doesn&#8217;t use land lines? Younger voters. Whose being left out of these polls? Right. Younger voters.</p>
<p>In WA, voters under age 35 OVERWHELMINGLY support not just expanded DP benefits, but full same-sex marriage.</p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t mean the fight has been won. Of course not. But Ref 71 proponents follow Maine&#8217;s early lead in strong, effective ads to counter the distortion and outright lies of the anti crowd, the results will be extremely favorable for the Ref 71 folks.</p>
<p>I predict Ref 71 will pass by over 60%.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49128</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49128</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the idea, Dan.  But I&#039;m not sure we have enough data to do anything other than speculate at this point.  There most likely is a Bradley effect, but it&#039;s difficult to measure.  It could as equally be a change in position over a month and a half, a lack of sophistication in polling assumptions, or a dozen other things.

During the Prop 8 campaign the polls were all over the place, though most showed it failing.   But later we heard that inside polling showed both camps it would pass - but that this info was not shared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the idea, Dan.  But I&#8217;m not sure we have enough data to do anything other than speculate at this point.  There most likely is a Bradley effect, but it&#8217;s difficult to measure.  It could as equally be a change in position over a month and a half, a lack of sophistication in polling assumptions, or a dozen other things.</p>
<p>During the Prop 8 campaign the polls were all over the place, though most showed it failing.   But later we heard that inside polling showed both camps it would pass &#8211; but that this info was not shared.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49124</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49124</guid>
		<description>Tim:

I think this issue of the reliability of polls on DP rights would make for a good post.  

The reason I am skeptical is that there is a consistent Bradley effect in all polling on DP or marriage.  I recall that in 2006 when gays tried to put DP on the ballot in Colorado, polls showed it winning.  But it lost 53-47.

I couldn&#039;t recall the poll results, so I just googled it and saw that the Rocky Mountain News was showing it winning 58-42 in September 2006.  

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/elections/article/0,2808,DRMN_24736_5004654,00.html

There either was a 11% Bradley effect or an 11% switch in support w/in 6 weeks of the poll.  I submit it is the former, not the latter. 

I really would like to see a poll asking about R71 specifically.  Then we can work off of that to calculate the Bradley effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim:</p>
<p>I think this issue of the reliability of polls on DP rights would make for a good post.  </p>
<p>The reason I am skeptical is that there is a consistent Bradley effect in all polling on DP or marriage.  I recall that in 2006 when gays tried to put DP on the ballot in Colorado, polls showed it winning.  But it lost 53-47.</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t recall the poll results, so I just googled it and saw that the Rocky Mountain News was showing it winning 58-42 in September 2006.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/elections/article/0,2808,DRMN_24736_5004654,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/elections/article/0,2808,DRMN_24736_5004654,00.html</a></p>
<p>There either was a 11% Bradley effect or an 11% switch in support w/in 6 weeks of the poll.  I submit it is the former, not the latter. </p>
<p>I really would like to see a poll asking about R71 specifically.  Then we can work off of that to calculate the Bradley effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Cole</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49100</link>
		<dc:creator>Cole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49100</guid>
		<description>This is the first year people will be given mail-in ballots.  People are more truthful behind closed doors.  I don&#039;t expect to win.  Heterosexuals always want a playing field that benefits them.  They don&#039;t want gay people to be on equal footing or anything that resembles it.

APPROVE Referendum 71.  Gay couples deserve the exact rights heterosexual couples have.
https://www.upwardstech.net/
approvereferendum71</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the first year people will be given mail-in ballots.  People are more truthful behind closed doors.  I don&#8217;t expect to win.  Heterosexuals always want a playing field that benefits them.  They don&#8217;t want gay people to be on equal footing or anything that resembles it.</p>
<p>APPROVE Referendum 71.  Gay couples deserve the exact rights heterosexual couples have.<br />
<a href="https://www.upwardstech.net/" rel="nofollow">https://www.upwardstech.net/</a><br />
approvereferendum71</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49068</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 23:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49068</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe those polls.  I really don&#039;t.  

My prediction is, if this goes to the ballot, the pro-gay side will prevail, but by 51-53%.  The 66-75% range shown in a lot of polls for domestic partnership will vanish like froth.  The R71 folks will spin it as a  victory, as a narrow approval for domestic partner rights indicates that any attempt at full marriage equality would fail at the ballot box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe those polls.  I really don&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>My prediction is, if this goes to the ballot, the pro-gay side will prevail, but by 51-53%.  The 66-75% range shown in a lot of polls for domestic partnership will vanish like froth.  The R71 folks will spin it as a  victory, as a narrow approval for domestic partner rights indicates that any attempt at full marriage equality would fail at the ballot box.</p>
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		<title>By: Burr</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49061</link>
		<dc:creator>Burr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 23:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49061</guid>
		<description>&quot;But by 2008, 66 percent of registered voters said they supported same-sex marriage (36.7 percent) or full domestic partnerships (29.3 percent). Just 32.6 percent were in support of lesser rights.&quot;

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2009793500_poll_finds_support_for_same-se.html

Let&#039;s try not to piss away a lead this time by letting the other team cheat with lies and not calling them on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But by 2008, 66 percent of registered voters said they supported same-sex marriage (36.7 percent) or full domestic partnerships (29.3 percent). Just 32.6 percent were in support of lesser rights.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2009793500_poll_finds_support_for_same-se.html" rel="nofollow">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2009793500_poll_finds_support_for_same-se.html</a></p>
<p>Let&#8217;s try not to piss away a lead this time by letting the other team cheat with lies and not calling them on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Burr</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49052</link>
		<dc:creator>Burr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 21:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49052</guid>
		<description>&quot;state law does not require the secretary of state to not accept petitions that don’t meet statutory requirements.&quot;

This doesn&#039;t make any sense whatsoever. How are they statutory _requirements_ if in fact they aren&#039;t even required?!?!??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;state law does not require the secretary of state to not accept petitions that don’t meet statutory requirements.&#8221;</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t make any sense whatsoever. How are they statutory _requirements_ if in fact they aren&#8217;t even required?!?!??</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49048</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49048</guid>
		<description>Whatever happens in court or at the ballot box this year, I sincerely hope that WA gays will take an active role in defeating Sam Reed, who has shown himself to be lawless.  There was absolutely no legitimate defense for the way he conducted.

I agree with Lindoro&#039;s post above.  However, our side will really need to make clear that the SoS does not have unfettered discretion to do as he pleases.  All administrative agencies have inherent limits on the exercise of discretion, and there should be well-developed caselaw in WA to address this, even if it may not have involved the SoS specfically.  I thought that was a great failing in the judge&#039;s ruling.  This is not as hard a point as she is making it out to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever happens in court or at the ballot box this year, I sincerely hope that WA gays will take an active role in defeating Sam Reed, who has shown himself to be lawless.  There was absolutely no legitimate defense for the way he conducted.</p>
<p>I agree with Lindoro&#8217;s post above.  However, our side will really need to make clear that the SoS does not have unfettered discretion to do as he pleases.  All administrative agencies have inherent limits on the exercise of discretion, and there should be well-developed caselaw in WA to address this, even if it may not have involved the SoS specfically.  I thought that was a great failing in the judge&#8217;s ruling.  This is not as hard a point as she is making it out to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard W. Fitch</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09/02/14435/comment-page-1#comment-49043</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard W. Fitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=14435#comment-49043</guid>
		<description>If the WA SoS had already decided to approve the referendum, why did anyone even bother to have people sign petitions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the WA SoS had already decided to approve the referendum, why did anyone even bother to have people sign petitions?</p>
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