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	<title>Comments on: Protect Maine Equality Won&#8217;t Score A Touchdown If They Keep Playing Defense</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51241</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51241</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s another suggested ad-- oned directed to gay people and their families.

Talk to your friends, families, and neighbors about how this impacts you. come out if you haven&#039;t. Do something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s another suggested ad&#8211; oned directed to gay people and their families.</p>
<p>Talk to your friends, families, and neighbors about how this impacts you. come out if you haven&#8217;t. Do something.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Hughes</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51213</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 22:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51213</guid>
		<description>Timothy&#039;s latest ad suggestion is a winner!
&lt;blockquote&gt;We believe that the most important parts about marriage are love and commitment;  ...

Those who support Referendum 1 believe that none of this matters. They dont think that marriage is about love and commitment and family. They think the very most important thing about marriage is a few body parts.

Please support real marriage of love, commitment, and family. Please reject Referendum 1.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Here&#039;s the problem:  the vast majority of people in the middle will react to appeals to equality and fairness with a huge yawn.  It doesn&#039;t impact them.

We need to attack.  Yes, we would like to ride the noble white horse and stay above that, but that approach doesn&#039;t win.

Maybe they should release an ad that says something to the effect of &quot;The Catholic Church is closing (insert number) churches in Maine due to lack of funds.  But after spending millions to pay off victims of priests&#039; sexual abuses, they are now spending millions to harm Maine families they don&#039;t approve of.  And they have to resort to deceptive, lying ads to do it.&quot;

Or, &quot;Who&#039;s really behind the National Organization for Marriage, the out-of-state organization who is funding these attacks on some Maine families?&quot;

Bash &#039;em.  They have no scruples about lying and villifying us to take our rights away.

This is an off-year election.  Voter turnout will ultimately decide the issue.  The fact that there is so much grass-roots support in Maine for opposing Referendum 1, and the other side is relying heavily on dollars from the outside bodes well for our side.  Gotta get the people out to vote!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy&#8217;s latest ad suggestion is a winner!</p>
<blockquote><p>We believe that the most important parts about marriage are love and commitment;  &#8230;</p>
<p>Those who support Referendum 1 believe that none of this matters. They dont think that marriage is about love and commitment and family. They think the very most important thing about marriage is a few body parts.</p>
<p>Please support real marriage of love, commitment, and family. Please reject Referendum 1.</p></blockquote>
<p>Here&#8217;s the problem:  the vast majority of people in the middle will react to appeals to equality and fairness with a huge yawn.  It doesn&#8217;t impact them.</p>
<p>We need to attack.  Yes, we would like to ride the noble white horse and stay above that, but that approach doesn&#8217;t win.</p>
<p>Maybe they should release an ad that says something to the effect of &#8220;The Catholic Church is closing (insert number) churches in Maine due to lack of funds.  But after spending millions to pay off victims of priests&#8217; sexual abuses, they are now spending millions to harm Maine families they don&#8217;t approve of.  And they have to resort to deceptive, lying ads to do it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Or, &#8220;Who&#8217;s really behind the National Organization for Marriage, the out-of-state organization who is funding these attacks on some Maine families?&#8221;</p>
<p>Bash &#8216;em.  They have no scruples about lying and villifying us to take our rights away.</p>
<p>This is an off-year election.  Voter turnout will ultimately decide the issue.  The fact that there is so much grass-roots support in Maine for opposing Referendum 1, and the other side is relying heavily on dollars from the outside bodes well for our side.  Gotta get the people out to vote!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris McCoy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51209</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris McCoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 21:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51209</guid>
		<description>Throwing money blindly at an issue, hoping for the best, won&#039;t help.

What I would like to see is assurance from the PME camp that future donations will be used to launch a pro-active campaign, and not the re-active campaign they have been resorting to.

For myself, I want to feel like my money will be going toward a campaign that has a better chance of success, and not a repeat of the failed strategy from California.

So far I see More Of The Same (tm), which is why I, too, have not contributed.

Several suggestions here are more along the lines of aggressive campaigns I would support financially.  The 3 response ads I have seen so far are not.

However, I am not a Mainer, and I don&#039;t know how Mainers tick, but I know that similar tactics here in AZ failed miserably.  

Painting pretty pictures of wholesome families smiling on porches isn&#039;t enough. Attacking the opposition&#039;s house of cards is.

Stop trying to please everyone and offend no one.  If the bigots are offended when we call them bigots, tough.  They don&#039;t spare the harsh language when they attack us, why can&#039;t we.  If the truth really is on our side, what have we got to lose?  Or are secretly afraid that we might not be on the right side?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Throwing money blindly at an issue, hoping for the best, won&#8217;t help.</p>
<p>What I would like to see is assurance from the PME camp that future donations will be used to launch a pro-active campaign, and not the re-active campaign they have been resorting to.</p>
<p>For myself, I want to feel like my money will be going toward a campaign that has a better chance of success, and not a repeat of the failed strategy from California.</p>
<p>So far I see More Of The Same &#8482;, which is why I, too, have not contributed.</p>
<p>Several suggestions here are more along the lines of aggressive campaigns I would support financially.  The 3 response ads I have seen so far are not.</p>
<p>However, I am not a Mainer, and I don&#8217;t know how Mainers tick, but I know that similar tactics here in AZ failed miserably.  </p>
<p>Painting pretty pictures of wholesome families smiling on porches isn&#8217;t enough. Attacking the opposition&#8217;s house of cards is.</p>
<p>Stop trying to please everyone and offend no one.  If the bigots are offended when we call them bigots, tough.  They don&#8217;t spare the harsh language when they attack us, why can&#8217;t we.  If the truth really is on our side, what have we got to lose?  Or are secretly afraid that we might not be on the right side?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51206</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51206</guid>
		<description>Mike,

Yes it is crossed wires.  Here&#039;s how it happened:

&lt;b&gt;Ben in Oakland:&lt;/b&gt;  &quot;I have not donated any money to Maine or washington.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Mike:&lt;/b&gt;  &quot;The anti-gay forces are WAY better funded than the pro-gay forces.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Timothy:&lt;/b&gt;  &quot;I believe the most recent reports in Washington show that the pro-gay side had significantly more money contributed than did the anti-gay side.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Mike:&lt;/b&gt;  &quot;Timothy, no. That is not the case.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Timothy&lt;/b&gt; quotes Seattle Times article.

&lt;b&gt;Mike:&lt;/b&gt;  &quot;Timothy, perhaps our wires got crossed but we are talking about Maine, no? I’m not sure what Microsoft’s donation has to do with Maine…or your original post.&quot;

But I completely agree with you that we need as much money and as many volunteers as possible.  For both Maine and Washington.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>Yes it is crossed wires.  Here&#8217;s how it happened:</p>
<p><b>Ben in Oakland:</b>  &#8220;I have not donated any money to Maine or washington.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Mike:</b>  &#8220;The anti-gay forces are WAY better funded than the pro-gay forces.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Timothy:</b>  &#8220;I believe the most recent reports in Washington show that the pro-gay side had significantly more money contributed than did the anti-gay side.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Mike:</b>  &#8220;Timothy, no. That is not the case.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Timothy</b> quotes Seattle Times article.</p>
<p><b>Mike:</b>  &#8220;Timothy, perhaps our wires got crossed but we are talking about Maine, no? I’m not sure what Microsoft’s donation has to do with Maine…or your original post.&#8221;</p>
<p>But I completely agree with you that we need as much money and as many volunteers as possible.  For both Maine and Washington.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51205</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51205</guid>
		<description>Timothy, perhaps our wires got crossed but we are talking about Maine, no?  I&#039;m not sure what Microsoft&#039;s donation has to do with Maine...or your original post.

I guarantee that the Maine anti-gay forces are gonna flood that state in the last two weeks and we&#039;ll need as much money and as many volunteers as possible.  My partner and I are spending the week prior to the vote in the state.  

The people behind the vote no Campaign are doing the best they can with the resources available to them.  It&#039;s easy to armchair quarterback...but I&#039;m throughly aggravated with people who are saying they won&#039;t donate because they don&#039;t like the campaign.  THAT is the reason Maine is being run like it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, perhaps our wires got crossed but we are talking about Maine, no?  I&#8217;m not sure what Microsoft&#8217;s donation has to do with Maine&#8230;or your original post.</p>
<p>I guarantee that the Maine anti-gay forces are gonna flood that state in the last two weeks and we&#8217;ll need as much money and as many volunteers as possible.  My partner and I are spending the week prior to the vote in the state.  </p>
<p>The people behind the vote no Campaign are doing the best they can with the resources available to them.  It&#8217;s easy to armchair quarterback&#8230;but I&#8217;m throughly aggravated with people who are saying they won&#8217;t donate because they don&#8217;t like the campaign.  THAT is the reason Maine is being run like it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51203</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51203</guid>
		<description>A positive message on religious freedom is certainly a good way to go. Two approaches I would take:

A commercial featuring named ministers, rabbis, and imams, saying that their churches and denominations support quality, with a further message that enshrining marriage inequality and thus enforcing conservative rewligions prejudices on others who do not share them,compromises everyone&#039;s freedom of religion. Maybe a cutaway shot from a few talking heads to a large gorup of ministers.

Another freedom of religion commercial: perhaps a couple getting married in their church. The dialog: our church blesses our marriage, and believes God does as well. Somepeople don&#039;t want us to get married becauase they believe that God does not bless us, and intends marriage to be only for people hwo believe is they do. They are rfree tro believe what they want. In fact, the marriage equality law guarantees them this freedom, as does the first amendement to the constitution. But what aobut OUR religious freedom. is not
OUR religious freedom every bit as important as theirs?

Final voice over: Support religious freedom. Approve marriage equality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A positive message on religious freedom is certainly a good way to go. Two approaches I would take:</p>
<p>A commercial featuring named ministers, rabbis, and imams, saying that their churches and denominations support quality, with a further message that enshrining marriage inequality and thus enforcing conservative rewligions prejudices on others who do not share them,compromises everyone&#8217;s freedom of religion. Maybe a cutaway shot from a few talking heads to a large gorup of ministers.</p>
<p>Another freedom of religion commercial: perhaps a couple getting married in their church. The dialog: our church blesses our marriage, and believes God does as well. Somepeople don&#8217;t want us to get married becauase they believe that God does not bless us, and intends marriage to be only for people hwo believe is they do. They are rfree tro believe what they want. In fact, the marriage equality law guarantees them this freedom, as does the first amendement to the constitution. But what aobut OUR religious freedom. is not<br />
OUR religious freedom every bit as important as theirs?</p>
<p>Final voice over: Support religious freedom. Approve marriage equality.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Rush</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51201</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Rush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51201</guid>
		<description>Chris McCoy wrote...

&lt;blockquote&gt;As a resident of Arizona, I point out that, the 2006 ballot attempt failed because the opposition successfully pointed out that the text of the measure would cause the State to not be able to recognize heterosexual domestic partnerships, and the health benefits it was providing to them. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

If that is accurate, then it is more evidence of people voting to benefit their own best interests. Can we really blame them?

While appeals to fairness and equality will tug at the conscience of many voters, others will be looking for how same-sex marriage could possibly benefit them. And if they can&#039;t find any benefits, it may be very easy for them to vote against us.

We need to educate them on how full acceptance and equality for gays benefits all of society, both gay and straight. I outlined one area of those benefits earlier in these comments. Although it may involve aspects of some homosexual lives that are uncomfortable to discuss, they are facts that grown up people need to understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris McCoy wrote&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>As a resident of Arizona, I point out that, the 2006 ballot attempt failed because the opposition successfully pointed out that the text of the measure would cause the State to not be able to recognize heterosexual domestic partnerships, and the health benefits it was providing to them. </p></blockquote>
<p>If that is accurate, then it is more evidence of people voting to benefit their own best interests. Can we really blame them?</p>
<p>While appeals to fairness and equality will tug at the conscience of many voters, others will be looking for how same-sex marriage could possibly benefit them. And if they can&#8217;t find any benefits, it may be very easy for them to vote against us.</p>
<p>We need to educate them on how full acceptance and equality for gays benefits all of society, both gay and straight. I outlined one area of those benefits earlier in these comments. Although it may involve aspects of some homosexual lives that are uncomfortable to discuss, they are facts that grown up people need to understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris McCoy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51197</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris McCoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51197</guid>
		<description>As a resident of Arizona, I point out that, the 2006 ballot attempt failed because the opposition successfully pointed out that the text of the measure would cause the State to not be able to recognize heterosexual domestic partnerships, and the health benefits it was providing to them. Once the measure was re-written to specify homosexual relationships only (2008) it passed by a wide margin.

I think we need to frame this debate for the religious issue that it is in reality.  The anti-gay-marriage movement has no non-religious rational arguments. We need to call them on their religious bias and be utterly frank about it.

I am tired of trying to appease the undecideds. Equality cannot be won in brownie points for being nice and playing fair.

I am not interested in winning converts from their side.  I am interested in shutting down their lying propaganda machine and exposing them for the hypocrites and the bigots that they are.  If they cannot face the truth of their hypocrisy, that&#039;s not my problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a resident of Arizona, I point out that, the 2006 ballot attempt failed because the opposition successfully pointed out that the text of the measure would cause the State to not be able to recognize heterosexual domestic partnerships, and the health benefits it was providing to them. Once the measure was re-written to specify homosexual relationships only (2008) it passed by a wide margin.</p>
<p>I think we need to frame this debate for the religious issue that it is in reality.  The anti-gay-marriage movement has no non-religious rational arguments. We need to call them on their religious bias and be utterly frank about it.</p>
<p>I am tired of trying to appease the undecideds. Equality cannot be won in brownie points for being nice and playing fair.</p>
<p>I am not interested in winning converts from their side.  I am interested in shutting down their lying propaganda machine and exposing them for the hypocrites and the bigots that they are.  If they cannot face the truth of their hypocrisy, that&#8217;s not my problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51196</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51196</guid>
		<description>How about:

We believe that the most important parts about marriage are love and commitment; the assurance that when times are tough or problems arise that we are one; raising children to be good citizens and neighbors.  We believe that the most important thing about marriage is that it takes two separate people and unites them in front of their families, their community and their faith and makes them one.

Those who support Referendum 1 believe that none of this matters.  They dont think that marriage is about love and commitment and family.  They think the very most important thing about marriage is a few body parts.

Please support real marriage of love, commitment, and family.  Please reject Referendum 1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about:</p>
<p>We believe that the most important parts about marriage are love and commitment; the assurance that when times are tough or problems arise that we are one; raising children to be good citizens and neighbors.  We believe that the most important thing about marriage is that it takes two separate people and unites them in front of their families, their community and their faith and makes them one.</p>
<p>Those who support Referendum 1 believe that none of this matters.  They dont think that marriage is about love and commitment and family.  They think the very most important thing about marriage is a few body parts.</p>
<p>Please support real marriage of love, commitment, and family.  Please reject Referendum 1.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/08/15296/comment-page-1#comment-51195</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=15296#comment-51195</guid>
		<description>Mike,

From the &lt;a href=&quot;http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2010011331_microsoft_donates_to_r-71_camp.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Seattle Times article&lt;/a&gt; on Microsoft&#039;s $100,000 contribution to support domestic partnerships:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Microsoft&#039;s donation is the largest the campaign has received to date, according to reports filed with the state Public Disclosure Commission.

It brings to nearly $780,000 the total amount raised so far by Washington Families - an amount that dwarfs the $60,000 raised to date by the law&#039;s opponents, Protect Marriage Washington.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But you are quite right that we cannot assume that they aren&#039;t holding back the big dollar contributions so as to hide behind reporting dates.  We should contribute and volunteer.

And, as we saw in California, many anti-gay &quot;Christians&quot; are a bunch of liars and cheaters and feel no moral obligation whatsoever to be honest.  We have no reason to assume that the reports are accurate.   Remember when the Mormon Church said that they gave nothing to Prop 8?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>From the <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2010011331_microsoft_donates_to_r-71_camp.html" rel="nofollow">Seattle Times article</a> on Microsoft&#8217;s $100,000 contribution to support domestic partnerships:</p>
<blockquote><p>Microsoft&#8217;s donation is the largest the campaign has received to date, according to reports filed with the state Public Disclosure Commission.</p>
<p>It brings to nearly $780,000 the total amount raised so far by Washington Families &#8211; an amount that dwarfs the $60,000 raised to date by the law&#8217;s opponents, Protect Marriage Washington.</p></blockquote>
<p>But you are quite right that we cannot assume that they aren&#8217;t holding back the big dollar contributions so as to hide behind reporting dates.  We should contribute and volunteer.</p>
<p>And, as we saw in California, many anti-gay &#8220;Christians&#8221; are a bunch of liars and cheaters and feel no moral obligation whatsoever to be honest.  We have no reason to assume that the reports are accurate.   Remember when the Mormon Church said that they gave nothing to Prop 8?</p>
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