I think the claim of homosexuality being caused by bad parenting is almost as significant to the Ex-gay agenda as the claim that sexual orientation can be changed. It encourages people to mistakenly believe that they can prevent children from growing up to be gay. It also produces misguided guilt on the part of parents of gay children and resentment of homophobic gays toward their parents.

@ Quo,

“You suggest that, ‘Both conditions (the distant father and the homosexuality of the son) could be caused by an unidentified third factor instead of one causing the other.’ A third factor such as what, exactly? No one has ever suggested what that might be, so excuse me if I reject that idea as idle speculation.”

What does whether someone has suggested it previously have to do with whether it is possible? I was simply explaining why correlation is not necessarily evidence of causation. For instance, I once lived in a town where the alchohol consumption dramatically increased at the same time there were many more dogs in public. Does this mean that the presence of dogs causes people to consume alchohol? No. Both occurances were the result of an annual dog show.

“That sons who become gay make their fathers distant may of course be true in many cases, but it only counts against Nicolosi if it is combined with the (implausible) assumption that homosexuality is 100% biologically determined.”

That is what logicians call a False Dichotomy. Even if homosexuality did not have ANY biological factors, it would not add an ounce of support to Nicolosi’s “theory”.

Mark Yarhouse and Stanton Jones conducted a seven year study of Exodus participants. The results are in:

Conclusions
Based on the Jones and Yarhouse book, Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation, and on their follow up report, Ex-Gays? An Extended Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation, we can observe the following:

• The prospective sample reported, on average, virtually no change in attractions and a small increase in homosexual behavior.
• A retrospective look at ones perceptions of prior orientation from the perspective of one to three years yields a sharply different result from that seen by a prospective sample. This change in perspective may account for all reported change in Exodus ministries.
• Most change reported away from homosexuality and towards heterosexuality was in the interval between the starting point (T1) and the second measurement point (T2). This change occurred most strongly in the retrospective sample and may be due to variances in recollection.
• A combined prospective and retrospective sample experienced, on average, no significant increase in opposite sex attraction.
• A small percentage (perhaps 9%) of those who start Exodus programs may eventually self-categorize themselves as “experiencing substantial reductions in homosexual attraction and substantial conversion to heterosexual attraction and functioning. These persons will be unlike other heterosexuals in that they will continue to experience homosexual arousal and not experience much attraction to the opposite sex.
• Another small percentage (perhaps 11%) of those who start Exodus programs may eventually achieve a life of manageable homosexual attraction and chastity.
• Others may continue perpetually in Exodus programs without ever achieving any significantly reduced homosexual attractions.
• Eventually, most of those who start Exodus programs will drop out.
• On average, for each person who enters and Exodus program and finds any movement away from homosexual attraction, another will find movement towards homosexual attraction.

I find it odd that so much time and effort is being expended on this “distant father” arguement.

It really distracts from the more relevant issue that Nicolosi and all the other therapists out there who claim to be able to change a person’s sexual orientation have utterly failed. Not one of them can produce convincing evidence of sexual orientation change. Nicolosi doesn’t even try.

So, I guess regardless of whether it is purely biological or has some enviornmental influence, it would appear that sexual orientation is unchangeable and spending time on these sexual re-orientation ventures seems a tragic waste of time, money and emotional energy. These men would be better off trying to find peace with who they are and living a life that they can be proud of.

Janelle Hallman writes in her book The Heart of Female Same Sex Attraction about her observations from 20 years of counseling homosexuals with the last 10 years focusing on lesbian clients. She presents “common traits and experiences” of her clientele as a suggestion of “how each factor may have influence within the context of many other factors and processes.” She does this while stressing that every woman with SSA is unique and also by recognizing that her clientele is a self selected population that may not represent the general lesbian community.

She acknowledges “underlying indeterminable genetic or hormonal influences,” while observing “on a fairly consistent basis, the following exceptional, and quite probable, inherited characteristics and personality traits …1) ..above average intelligence. 2) ..are profoundly sensitive and attuned to other people and relational dynamics. 3) ..observant and curious with a propensity to ponder analyze and reflect. 4) ..exhibit gender nonconforming abilities and interests. 5) ..have an innate sense of justice. 6) ..are gifted and talented; their creativity is far reaching. 7) .. have a high level of energy and are adventurous and often athletic.

That being said, Janelle describes developmental categories of attachment, formation of self, gender identity and socialization in which her clients are often extremely conflicted. Under the “attachment” subheading, she writes of maternal patterns for the lesbian daughter as being a “relational dynamic” that is on “the extreme ends of a continuum from connectedness to separateness.”

For the enmeshed dynamic client, mother was experienced as weak or needy. For the relationally distant mother daughter dynamic, mother never seemed “truly present.” Of one such client, Janelle wrote, “For most of her life her heart’s cry has been directed toward other women, asking ‘Do you see me? Do you care?’” Janelle for her part attempts to provide that “home” for her clients, that “safe” place where she can just be.

Oh, so you can’t understand what I said, then? I didn’t say that ” gayness has to be 100% biological for gay sons to cause distant fathers “, I said something completely different, the point of which you (unsurprisingly) can’t grasp.

That sons who become gay make their fathers distant may of course be true in many cases, but it only counts against Nicolosi if it is combined with the (implausible) assumption that homosexuality is 100% biologically determined. Otherwise, it might be the case that sons who become gay make their fathers distant because of their effeminate behaviour, and that this distant relationship then causes the sons to become homosexual. That the effeminate behaviour might be biologically innate doesn’t mean that this must also be true of the homosexuality.

This is utterly muddled and nonsensical. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that gayness has to be 100% biological for gay sons to cause distant fathers and it is not implausible that gayness is primarily biological.

That you’d foolishly attempt to deny the obvious contradictions in other’s comments is no surprise given your willful blindness to reality.

You suggest that, “Both conditions (the distant father and the homosexuality of the son) could be caused by an unidentified third factor instead of one causing the other.”

A third factor such as what, exactly? No one has ever suggested what that might be, so excuse me if I reject that idea as idle speculation.

That sons who become gay make their fathers distant may of course be true in many cases, but it only counts against Nicolosi if it is combined with the (implausible) assumption that homosexuality is 100% biologically determined. Otherwise, it might be the case that sons who become gay make their fathers distant because of their effeminate behaviour, and that this distant relationship then causes the sons to become homosexual. That the effeminate behaviour might be biologically innate doesn’t mean that this must also be true of the homosexuality.

Priya,

I never said that according to France “there was no research on gays between 1973 and 1991″, I said that according to him there was no important research on sexual orientation in that period. He does say that, and he is completely wrong. You are showing your ignorance with your comments about the Bell and Weinberg study; it was devoted to testing theories about how sexual orientation is caused.

Your comments about sample size don’t deserve a response, and neither do your trivial attempts to pick apart real or perceived contraditions in other people’s comments.

Timothy,

The “single source” was a review of 58 studies performed over some 50 years.