I don’t follow. What are you quoting and what are you comparing it to?

Why is your comment on this thread?

f. In or about January 2001, Jenkins and Miller identified an alternative insemination specialist in Virginia for the purpose of pursuing a pregnancy of Miller. Jenkins paid approximately fifty thousand dollars to facilitate the alternative insemination that led to the birth of IMJ on April 16, 2002. . .

In or about August 2003, Jenkins told Miller that she wanted a separation due to her concerns over Miller’s behavior and refusal to seek help. Jenkins hoped that the separation would encourage Miller to seek help.

d. In September 2003, Miller and IMJ moved to Virginia. During that Fall, Jenkins traveled to Virginia regularly on weekends to visit IMJ.

C. Litigation Prior to 2007
7. Miller filed a complaint for dissolution of the civil union in Rutland Family Court in November 2003.

8. On June 17, 2004, the Rutland Family Court issued a temporary order regarding
parental rights and responsibilities. This order awarded Lisa temporary legal and physical responsibility for IMJ and awarded Janet parent-child contact-for two weekends in June, one weekend in July, and the third full week of each month, beginning in August 2004. The Family Court also ordered Lisa to permit Janet to have telephone Contact with 1MJ once daily.

You are factually mistaken. For the first few years they raised the child together.

At the time of their separation, Lisa requested that the court award her child support. And until Lisa denied her access, Janet provided emotional support.

I’m saddened that people claiming to be Christians have led a campaign of lies to discredit Janet. Please do not continue the pattern of dishonesty.

I hope they track Lisa down and jail her and I hope she never sees another day with Isabella, at least until she’s old enough to understand everything that has happened and been done to her.

And if Debbie Thurman is as involved as I think she is in aiding a felon, I hope she is also jailed.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:iGosn8naYRkJ:theformers.wordpress.com/2009/12/30/this-is-true-motherhood/+http://theformers.wordpress.com/2009/12/30/this-is-true-motherhood/&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Miller was malevolent. She wanted to hurt Jenkins. She wanted to destroy Jenkins relationship with Isabella. By your own definition when good is twisted it is evil.

Twisted good isn’t good, but it’s not necessarily evil. To me, “evil” at least means malevolent: wanting to destroy. Again, semantics.

I just happen to have the comments from Thurman’s last blog, with exception of the first comment which was mine. Someone yelled rudely but nothing out of the ordinary flame wars. Note, Debbie’s username is TheFormers.

theformers said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

OK, let’s try this: I honestly do not know if Lisa is right in doing what she has done. I am willing to leave it in God’s hands. I support her, the person. I am not unequivocally saying I believe she is engaging in justified civil disobedience. But I acknowledge that she believes she is and that she has not acted without a lot of careful thought and prayer. That’s as clear as this is going to get.

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Lindoro Almaviva added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

Lindoro Almaviva said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

And that is a lie. Lie Lie lie. For someone who is so immersed in all this, you saying you have no idea what is going on wreaks of untruths and lies written under the advise of someone to save face.

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theformers added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

theformers said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

Lindoro, you are no longer welcome to post comments here.

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Lindoro Almaviva said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

Why, because I am calling you out? because I am giving you exactly what you have given gay people and now you have someone who will not be bullied by you? Because I was not afraid of your bullying tactics and threats of “libel suits”? Because i have said ity and will continue saying that I believe you are aiding and abetting a felon?

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Lindoro Almaviva said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

How does it feel to be the object of attacks this time? how does it feel to be the punching bag this time? See? i am not the one claiming to be a “Cristian”. I am not the one claiming to be a victim of the system. How does it feel to be on the receiving end of what you have been all too happy to dish for some time now? You think it hurts me?

I am not the one claiming purity here. I am not the one claiming that God spoke to me and that I am supposed to celebrate the committing of a felony and the destruction of a family based on some interpretation of a bible verse that didn’t even come from Jesus himself? What I hope is that you do see the just rewards of your actions; because if God does exist, He would do no better than give you exactly what you deserve for doing this..

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thomasthefree said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

Debbie,

I think your clarification is very clear, as were your original sentiments, which were your own and certain nothing illegal to express. You’ve gone the extra mile to clarify . . . and still you are attacked. Obviously, there are some people who have jumped on an opportunity to try to discredit you. That they do so in such an uncivil manner clarifies their intent. They’s using this situation. This is indeed a heartbreaking case. The young girl should not have ever been subjected to this. The true parent in this case should not have to spend years seeking justice. I’m praying, as you requested, that God’s will be done and that human interference, particularly by those who selfishly want to profit from these tragedies to further their personal persuasions, be stilled. Families are not composed of partners. Families are composed of a man and a woman who marry and commit themselves to each other and in many cases, to raising children. Families do fail and laws are designed to deal with that. However, this is not really a family in God’s eyes and it is no surprise that it has become so twisted. I’m praying for all involved, as well as those who are attacking you for your concern.

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eulogos1 added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

eulogos1 said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

There was no family. Two women and a baby that one of them had is not a family.

Not knowing any more about the situation, I will say that letting Janet have visitation might have been the lesser of several evils. Mothers often have to let their children have visitation with men they think aren’t very good for their children. If Janet would agree not to discuss homosexuality with the child and not to speak against her Christian beliefs, and if she wouldn’t share a bed with another woman or engage in displays of sexual affection with a woman in front of the child, ( and yes I do mean the kinds of kisses and hugs which are acceptable for a married couple to engage in in front of a child) then it might have been a bearable situation. But perhaps she would not agree to this. In which case I see why Lisa was very reluctant.

Whether letting a child be exposed to open homosexuality is a greater evil, or having to live in hiding the rest of her life, plus the risk that they may be caught and she may be ripped from her mother is the greater, only LIsa can say.

Sometimes the law is wrong. I do support her in disobeying it if she believes it is what is right for her child. And no, I don’t have much respect for the family court system, and even less so in this case. If I knew where she was (and I don’t even know her and have never met her) I would never tell, and I would assist her if I were able.

But I think she is taking a terrible risk and I am frightened for her.
Susan Peterson

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hazemyth added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

hazemyth said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

Whatever one’s sympathies, the term ‘civil disobedience’ does not apply. Protestors, in acts of civil disobedience, break the law but submit to arrest — they do not flee it. This is both commonly accepted and explicitly stated by leaders in it’s development, such as Mahatma Gandhi.

Further, people who commit civil disobedience do so for no immediate gain. It is a form of protest regarding public policy. They are disinterested in the outcome of the specific transgressions they commit. Any gain is to be found in changing the policy. Criminal transgressions that serve immediate outcomes or personal gain are not regarded as forms of civil disobedience, though their may perpetrators consider them matters of justice.

It seems likely that Lisa Miller has gone to ground, if she indeed has, in order to retain custody of her child. She may feel this is best for the child. She may feel that the law, in general or as applied to her, is unjust. However, she has a personal and immediate stake in her actions. It is not an act of civil disobedience.

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theformers added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

theformers said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

I have no response for Lindoro, who I have decided to let hang around a bit as long as the language is decent.

This is for Hazemyth, who raises the point that what Lisa appears to have done is not actually civil disobedience because she is not submitting herself at this time for arrest or some other consequences of her refusal to comply with policies or court rulings and she has only self-serving motives. Did I get that right?

While I plan on doing a bit of research on civil disobedience and will comment further on this, I will only point out now that Lisa presented herself for punishment in the form of contempt of court fines for years. She clearly was punished in the court of public opinion, something I have a bit of personal experience with. And as to the whole policy-change motive of civil disobedience, well, she’s got that one covered, too. Clearly, she has not only sought to protect the welfare of her daughter and maintain her parental authority, but also has hoped her own travails with this case would have an impact on how marriage is viewed socially, politically and spiritually in the future.

It is pretty ironic that a woman who has no husband (maybe that could change down the road), who chose — against what God would have wanted — to use artificial insemination to bring a child into the world in a lesbian household, without being able to see farther down the road to the fallout, would now be in a position to impact social and marriage mores with a precedent-setting legal case? Do you really think Lisa Miller has not been able to grasps the significance of all this? She’s not that naive.

Lisa is not representing an oppressed people in the same sense that Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights protesters were. They had strength in numbers and large extended families for support. In a sense, she is representing all those who are formers or ex/post-gays. But even that is not her main cause, I think. I see that more as motherhood and marriage.

Lisa is walking this road essentially alone as the mother who has to be there to raise her child. Alone yet not alone. Her extended family, beyond her dad and brother, has been the many compassionate and forgiving Christian friends who found they could not help but love her and Isabella, despite their crazy circumstances. They/we saw a woman who was contrite, having come to her senses from her former sinful life and wanted only to do the right thing and to be a blessing to others. But she had to extricate herself from this tangled web before having the full freedom to go on with life. With two states battling tooth and nail over her personal life and future and no end in sight, how could she?

It’s easy for us to sit back as armchair quarterbacks, not getting bruised and banged up in the game, and spout all our pontifications about what she should or shouldn’t have done. We have not walked a day in her shoes. I have watched her allow God to build her up under the most excruciating circumstances, and in that, she has been a marvelous inspiration to me. Is she perfect? No. She has feel of clay the same as I do. We will just have to wait and see what God will accomplish through this struggle. And make no mistake, He is in it.

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theformers added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

theformers said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

Thom, thank you, my friend. God is big enough to handle this. It does help to hear an encouraging word now and then, though. :)

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theformers said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

I am including some points raised in an analysis of civil disobedience by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/civil-disobedience). It includes some familiar names, such as John Rawls, Henry David Thoreau and John Stuart Mill.

For example:

“The controllers of mainstream media tend to give defenders of unpopular views limited space to make their case. Given the sensational news value of illegal methods, however, engaging in civil disobedience often leads to wide dissemination of a position (Russell, 1998, 635). John Stuart Mill observes, with regard to dissent in general, that sometimes the only way to make a view heard is to allow, or even to invite, society to ridicule and sensationalise it as intemperate and irrational (Mill, 1999). Admittedly, the success of this strategy depends partly upon the character of the society in which it is employed; but it should not be ruled out as a strategy for communication.”

Given the poor handling of the Miller v. Jenkins case by the MSM and the even more scant and misunderstood views of ex-gays, might this be a valid justification for Lisa’s actions, whatever we call them?

And this:

“Conscientious Objection: This kind of protest may be understood as a violation of the law motivated by the dissenter’s belief that she is morally prohibited to follow the law because the law is either bad or wrong, totally or in part.”

As to possible justification for civil disobedience:

“Justified civil disobedience, says Rawls, can serve to inhibit departures from justice and to correct departures when they occur; thus it can act as a stabilising force in society (Rawls, 1971, 383)”

Christian apologist Francis Schaeffer said in his little book, “A Christian Manifesto”: “If there is no final place for civil disobedience, then the government has been made autonomous, and as such, it has been put in place of the Living God.”

Christian blogger Michael Keating observed in a review of Schaeffer’s book, “For example in current affairs it would be one thing for the government to force a Christian to have an abortion and another thing to force the State of Georgia to violate its own constitution in some way. This is the basic argument he extends to the colonial fight for independence, namely that England was trying to force unjust laws on the colonies as entities. In such cases, individuals who organize under lesser authorities (for example the Governor of Georgia) have the right and in many cases the duty to resist.”

It would be hard to miss the parallel here between Vermont’s and Virginia’s squaring off over the definition of marriage and the states’ opposing laws recognizing what is and isn’t marriage.

There is no federal marriage law or Constitutional amendment, so this case is the first one to seek a de facto government statement on such, should it wind up being decided by the Supreme Court of the United States. Perhaps Lisa determined that the only way to get there, given the failure of Congress to act in light of the clear need for such national consensus, is through the courts with the added impetus of an act of civil disobedience.

Just some additional thoughts to chew on.

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theformers added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

theformers said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

My most recent comment did not appear in chronological order. Sorry.

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Lindoro Almaviva added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

Lindoro Almaviva said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES,

And more lies. All those protestations are lies and more lies. Try to hide behind you false version of Christ and your “explanations” you stink of all the lies you have told.

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Lindoro Almaviva added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

Lindoro Almaviva said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

I coudn’t care, truly. My language is only a reflection of YOUR language and not anymore vulgar than all the lies and innuendo you have spread.

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Lindoro Almaviva added a new comment to the post Some Needed Clarification.

Lindoro Almaviva said on Some Needed Clarification
December 31, 2009 at 9:40 am

LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES…

And more lies.

All your protestation and claims to know nothing wreak of lies. Your so called “perspective” is not more than gloating over a mother living the worst nightmare a mother could live. Your protestation of knowing nothing wreak of hidden truths and saving face.

Scream all you want, protest all you want. There are people who see through that.