Box Turtle Bulletin

yup the ex lesbian duo…in the lam

Neko

They do need to start questioning people, and I hope they find Isabella soon! I worry about after she’s returned to Ms. Jenkins, though. Hopefully Janet understands that Isabella probably isn’t going to come to her with open arms. In fact, she’s probably going to outright hate her at first. The poor child has been brainwashed by Ms. Miller for years now! It’s going to be hard to overcome.

Richard W. Fitch

Some of the info on this case is getting forgotten, simply because there is SO much! On another blog there was a comment from a presumed neighbor of Janet that Jenkins is a day-care professional. A little search turned up this article from NewsWeek of Dec 8 2008. http://www.newsweek.com/id/172554
If indeed Janet is competent in her day care skills, the prospect of making a good transition for Isabella should be high. Regardless, it is better (hopefully) for the child to have a stable home environment than to be on the run with a mother of questionable mental stability.

Lindoro Almaviva

And Debbie TRhurman looks more implicated by the second. I hope she ends in jail.

Scott

If Debbie and friends are trying to force a full faith and credit fight, they’re going to lose and lose big.

George78

“Were I the Bedford County Sheriffâ€™s Department, I would start questioning with Thurman and others at Thomas Road Baptist Church and Liberty University with whom Miller has had close contact, including those with whom she may have resided in the past.”

There is just one problem, no one is under any obligation to talk to the police, ever. Not if they are charged with a crime. Not if they are a witness. If the police come to question someone, a person is free to say “I am not talking to you.” There is nothing that can be done to force someone to speak to the police.

Given some of the comments on the Facebook page, it is almost certain that Lisa & Isabella are out of the country right now. If so, there really isn’t a way to get her back here. Very few countries would extradite her back here.

Priya Lynn

I don’t buy that its likely that they’re out of the country, in fact I think its unlikely. Its doubtful that Miller is willing to give up the security of the country she’s known and the supporters she has in the States to go to another country where she knows no one, has no supporters and has to start from scratch to build up a life.

George78

I think you are mistaken on that. The comments on the Facebook page practically give it away. You vastly overstate the difficulty in running to another country. Parents in these cases do this type of thing all the time.

Priya Lynn

George, your thinking I’m mistaken won’t make me mistaken. You’re naive. Miller is almost certainly still in the States.

Jarred

If the police come to question someone, a person is free to say â€œI am not talking to you.â€ There is nothing that can be done to force someone to speak to the police.

Of course, if they have evidence that you know something about a crime or helped a criminal elude justice, they might be able to arrest you for impeding a criminal investigation or possibly aiding a fugitive or even conspiracy after the fact. You can certainly invoked your Miranda rights and still refuse to talk. But you might spend some time in a small cell while not talking.

George78

“Of course, if they have evidence that you know something about a crime or helped a criminal elude justice, they might be able to arrest you for impeding a criminal investigation or possibly aiding a fugitive or even conspiracy after the fact. You can certainly invoked your Miranda rights and still refuse to talk. But you might spend some time in a small cell while not talking.”

That’s actually not true. Miranda only applies when there is custody and interrogation.

Proving Conspiracy in a case like this would be virtually impossible. Miller apparently vanished in September. There wasn’t even a valid transfer order until January.

I understand that some of you want people rounded up with Gestapo tactics, but our Constitution doesn’t permit such things. Throwing out the Constitution in pursuit of another goal isn’t ever a valid tactic.

While it makes things more difficult in many cases, our Constitution was designed to protect individual liberty. That means that people are not under any obligation to cooperate with the Police or answer any questions.

George78

“George, your thinking Iâ€™m mistaken wonâ€™t make me mistaken. Youâ€™re naive. Miller is almost certainly still in the States.”

You wanting Miller to be in the States doesn’t mean that she is. I understand that you really, really want her to go to jail, and that might be easier if she were in the States, but your hope does not reality make.

Priya Lynn

I’m not buying your oppinion on that one either George. You’re just a wishful thinker.

Priya Lynn

George, the fantasies of some bigots on facebook that Miller is no longer in the country are not in anyway evidence that Miller is no longer in the country. Such fantasies will have no effect whatsoever on Miller’s actions. If she was originally from some other country it’d be believable that she might abscond there, but as it stands your fantasies simply aren’t credible and its much more likely that Miller will remain in the country she’s comfortable in than not.

Jarred

I understand that some of you want people rounded up with Gestapo tactics, but our Constitution doesnâ€™t permit such things.

Gestapo tactics? Hardly. Wanting police to investigate people who may have supported a criminal and arrest and prosecute them as possible is perfectly reasonable. I’ve never suggested that the police should break the law in the process of conducting such investigations.

I think you’ve treaded rather close to Godwinning the conversation.

George78

“Iâ€™m not buying your oppinion on that one either George. Youâ€™re just a wishful thinker.”

Really? You know what I think now? How enlightening. Tell me, what am I thinking right now?

George78

“George, the fantasies of some bigots on facebook that Miller is no longer in the country are not in anyway evidence that Miller is no longer in the country. Such fantasies will have no effect whatsoever on Millerâ€™s actions. If she was originally from some other country itâ€™d be believable that she might abscond there, but as it stands your fantasies simply arenâ€™t credible and its much more likely that Miller will remain in the country sheâ€™s comfortable in than not.”

I hate to break it to you, but this type of thing happens all the time. We know that many of those people on Facebook know her personally. Why would they make such comments out of the blue? Do a bit of research, parents leaving the nation in these circumstances is not unheard of. In fact, it is extremely common.

George78

“Gestapo tactics? Hardly. Wanting police to investigate people who may have supported a criminal and arrest and prosecute them as possible is perfectly reasonable.”

Not if doing so would violate the Constitution. People have a right to refuse to cooperate with the Police. They have a right to refuse to answer any questions, whether criminal, witness or otherwise.

In fact, it is fairly sound advice to never talk to the police in a majority of circumstances.

“Iâ€™ve never suggested that the police should break the law in the process of conducting such investigations.”

Agreed. I never said that you did. However, what some people seem to want, is for random questioning of people who may have talked to Miller in the past. They are under no obligation to cooperate with any such fishing expedition.

Throwing out one branch of civil liberties in pursuit of another is never an option.

“I think youâ€™ve treaded rather close to Godwinning the conversation.”

I don’t recognize “Godwin’s “Law””.

Priya Lynn

No, it doesn’t happen all the time George. Native born americans absconding with their children rarely leave the country. You’re just a wishful thinker.

Priya Lynn

George said “We know that many of those people on Facebook know her personally. Why would they make such comments out of the blue?”.

The same reason you falsely claim she’s likely out of the country – the fantasy that she’ll get away with her crime makes them happy.

Priya Lynn

Once again George, the fantasies of bigots on facebook that Miller has left the country aren’t in any way evidence that she has left the country. Miller is almost certainly in the States where she’s comfortable and her friends and supporters are.

Burr

I’m not sure why it matters what’s more likely. We obviously don’t know the truth.

As for her being able to fully escape consequences abroad, you only have to look at Elian Gonzalez or the recent Brazil case to see that isn’t necessarily the case at least as far as custody of a child goes.

George78

“No, it doesnâ€™t happen all the time George. Native born americans absconding with their children rarely leave the country.”

Please provide a citation for this assertion or retract.

“Youâ€™re just a wishful thinker.”

Again, how do you know what I am thinking?

You really are showing yourself to be quite deranged.

George78

“The same reason you falsely claim sheâ€™s likely out of the country â€“ the fantasy that sheâ€™ll get away with her crime makes them happy.”

Because you know for certain that she is not? What was that about wishful thinking? (Since you are psychic and know what everyone else is thinking and all.)

The fact is, you really hope that she isn’t out of the country. None of us know for sure. We do know that people who know her implied that she is. That’s the only evidence that we have at the moment. That could all be “wishful thinking” as you suggest, but if these people really know that she isn’t out of the country, why would such assertion make them happy?

Your ramblings have devolved into lunacy.

George78

“Once again George, the fantasies of bigots on facebook that Miller has left the country arenâ€™t in any way evidence that she has left the country. Miller is almost certainly in the States where sheâ€™s comfortable and her friends and supporters are.”

Because your assertions are factually based, right? Because you really, really, really wishing that to be the case, makes it reality, Right?

Because no one has ever left the country before under these circumstances, right?

Again, you are rambling like a lunatic and make wide accusations against anyone who dares disagree with you.

You know what we call that? Bigotry.

George78

“Iâ€™m not sure why it matters whatâ€™s more likely. We obviously donâ€™t know the truth.”

This is true.

“As for her being able to fully escape consequences abroad, you only have to look at Elian Gonzalez or the recent Brazil case to see that isnâ€™t necessarily the case at least as far as custody of a child goes.”

Remember in the Elian Gonzalez affair, he was taken in the United States and sent back to Cuba. It’s an apples and oranges case. The fact that the United States would return a child back to Cuba does not mean that another Country would return a person back to the United States. Indeed, there are many nations on earth where it would be legally impossible to do such.

Burr

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2009/1222/Brazil-custody-case-David-Goldman-gets-custody-of-son-Sean

Well I was also referring to this case where a child WAS returned back to the US..

It took many years however.

John

The Department of Homeland Security could easily answer the question about whether Isabella or Lisa Miller have crossed the border.

I don’t know if there was a hold imposed on Isabella’s passport (or if she even has one). A hold on the passport of a child involved in a contentious custody dispute would seem a reasonable precaution.

George78

“The Department of Homeland Security could easily answer the question about whether Isabella or Lisa Miller have crossed the border.”

Yes, if she left under her real name and didn’t have forged documents.

I’ve worked in family law for a long time, and I’ve seen several examples of cases like this where parents left the country and could not be touched by U.S. Court orders. Merely pointing out that this happens is not “wishing that it occurred in this case” as some fanatics have asserted.

George78

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2009/1222/Brazil-custody-case-David-Goldman-gets-custody-of-son-Sean

“Well I was also referring to this case where a child WAS returned back to the US..

It took many years however.”

A good find, and it demonstrates some of the things that I have been talking about.

Remember, Brazil is a party state with the United States under the Hague Convention. Many countries are not. And, as you pointed out, even in the case of a party nation, the case took several years.

John

Traveling with forged documents in post 9/11 times is harder than one would think. It would require skills that I doubt Lisa Miller has. If an expert forger, able to fool current passport fraud technology, were to help her, her biggest problem might not be with Judge Cohen.

Priya Lynn

George said “Please provide a citation for this assertion or retract.”

Please provide a citation for your assertion that its extremely common for abducting parents to leave the country or retract.

George said “We do know that people who know her implied that she is. Thatâ€™s the only evidence that we have at the moment.”.

The wisheful thinking of bigots on facebook that she’s out of the country is not in anyway evidence that she is.

George said “Again, you are rambling like a lunatic and make wide accusations against anyone who dares disagree with you. You know what we call that? Bigotry.”.

I haven’t made any accusations against you George, however you have accused me of being a lunatic merely because I dared to disagree with you. If anyone’s a bigot here its you.

Priya Lynn

And George, while you’re in the demanding citations mood, how about you also provide citations for your claim that some of us want people rounded up with Gestapo tactics and a citation for your claim that Miller is almost certainly out of the country.

George78

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001204—-000-.html

“Please provide a citation for your assertion that its extremely common for abducting parents to leave the country or retract.”

It is so common that an International Convention was convened in 1980 to address international Parental Kidnapping.

It is common enough, that the United States Code was re-written to address it.

It’s common enough to be addressed in the Criminal Resource Manual:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01957.htm

And it is common enough that an entire resource guide was printed by the United States Government:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/215476.pdf

(I also have worked in Family Law for many years and have personally seen cases like this.)

I have more citations if you would like, but that would probably be overkill.

“The wisheful thinking of bigots on facebook that sheâ€™s out of the country is not in anyway evidence that she is.”

And your wishful thinking that she is still here is evidence that she is? Why?

Do you know her? Do you have personal knowledge of where she might be?

“I havenâ€™t made any accusations against you George, however you have accused me of being a lunatic merely because I dared to disagree with you. If anyoneâ€™s a bigot here its you.”

No, I called you a lunatic because you began rambling about what “I think” and my “wishful thinking.” You don’t know me, or where my loyalties lie.

“And George, while youâ€™re in the demanding citations mood, how about you also provide citations for your claim that some of us want people rounded up with Gestapo tactics and a citation for your claim that Miller is almost certainly out of the country.”

Calling for random questioning of people at Thomas Road Baptist Church, Liberty University, and anyone who knew Miller is Gestapo Tactics. Whether you agree with these people or not, throwing out the Constitution is never an answer. These people are under no obligation to cooperate with Police. I’d tell the same to anyone. Cooperation with the Police is usually a losing deal.

It is clear that you really, really hope that Miller is still here in the Country. However, your hope does not reality make.

The reality of the situation is that people leave the country in these situations all the time.

DÃ©sirÃ©e

I’m curious as to why you would tell people *not* to help the police in a criminal investigation. If someone witnessed a murder would you recommend they not tell the police?

John

The police can question anyone they want. It would be malpractice on the part of any investigator looking for a missing child not to go their school, neighborhood, church, community center or any other place the child frequented and ask people questions about the possible whereabouts of the child.

If the police have strong enough evidence for a judge that someone may have participated in the abduction of the child, the judge can grant search warrants to the police to aide in their investigation.

This is how police work is done in the United States. It is called standard operating proceedure.

John

Also, people can choose not to answer the police, but should they lie to the police, they could face some pretty severe consequences.

TJMcFisty

“Calling for random questioning of people at Thomas Road Baptist Church, Liberty University, and anyone who knew Miller is Gestapo Tactics.”

No, it’s called “following leads”.

Priya Lynn

George, your citations are meaningless. Show me a citation that shows the percentage of parental kidnappings where a parent has left the country versus the percentage who have not. Unless you have that you have nothing to back up your suggestion that its more likely than not that someone like Miller has fled the country.

George said “No, I called you a lunatic because you began rambling about what â€œI thinkâ€ and my â€œwishful thinking.â€ You donâ€™t know me, or where my loyalties lie.”.

And as we can see, its you who’s making accusations, not me. Its abundantly obvious from your posts that you take pleasure in the idea that Miller has left the country and that this will help her evade justice. Your loyalties are obvious and you’re not fooling anyone, its obvious to any rational person. As you said, your accusations against those who dare to disagree with you is a demonstration of your bigotry.

George said “Calling for random questioning of people at Thomas Road Baptist Church, Liberty University, and anyone who knew Miller is Gestapo Tactics.”.

LOL, you’re so full of it. That isn’t remotely “gestapo” tactics, its normal procedure in a just investigation. The Gestapo used torture and the most extreme of measures to get what they wanted. Your hyperbole is further proof that it is you who is the bigot and your loyalties are with the criminal Miller. We don’t need no stinking crystal ball to see that.

Priya Lynn

Just to highlight George’s hypocrisy:

George said “I called you a lunatic because you began rambling about what â€œI thinkâ€ and my â€œwishful thinking.â€ You donâ€™t know me, or where my loyalties lie.

George said “And your wishful thinking that she is still here is evidence that she is?” and “It is clear that you really, really hope that Miller is still here in the Country.”

So, I am supposedly a lunatic because I spoke about what George thinks and his “wishful thinking” but someone how he’s not a lunatic for talking about what I think and my “wishful thinking”. Somehow its supposed to be bigotry when I do it, but is not when George does it. George is a hypocrite. George claimed I was a bigot because I had made accusations against him. Unfortunately for George I made no accusations, he did, accusing me of being a lunatic. George insn’t just a hypocrite, by George’s own logic he’s a bigot.

Burr

Iâ€™m curious as to why you would tell people *not* to help the police in a criminal investigation. If someone witnessed a murder would you recommend they not tell the police?

If you are a potential suspect (as these people might be, as potential accomplices) it’s probably better to get a lawyer first and not volunteer information that could falsely incriminate yourself. Otherwise, yes as an innocent bystander you should help.

Outside of the “Gestapo tactics” hyperbole I don’t see what’s so wrong with George’s input as someone with knowledge of family law.

Priya Lynn

What’s wrong with George’s input is his claim that Miller is almost certainly out of the country has no evidence to back it up. Admittedly I made a similar claim, but I did that primarily to point out the absurdity of George’s certainty, and to annoy George – my claim remains as valid as his.

What’s further wrong with George’s input is his claim that I’m a lunatic for talking about his wishful thinking when in fact he’s done the same with regards to me. If I’m a lunatic, so is George.

Finally, whats wrong with Geroge’s input is his claim that I made accusations against him and that that makes me a bigot when in fact I made no accusations against him, but he in fact accused me of being a lunatic, which in his logic makes him the bigot.

George78

“Iâ€™m curious as to why you would tell people *not* to help the police in a criminal investigation. If someone witnessed a murder would you recommend they not tell the police?”

It’s a personal decision. I wouldn’t dictate to anyone how they should respond to police questioning. My recommendation however, would be never, under any circumstances, should you talk to the police if they have any questions regarding you, in any way.

If one decides to help the police as a witness, that is entirely up to the individual person.

George78

”

This is how police work is done in the United States. It is called standard operating proceedure.”

Given that Miller disappeared in September, and that she was a custodial parent at the time, it would be very difficult to find any evidence that would justify any warrants.

George78

“No, itâ€™s called â€œfollowing leadsâ€.”

I disagree. We don’t randomly question people in a free society, simply because we don’t like the group of people that they hang with.

Regardless, the police are free to talk to whoever they want, but the people are equally free to refuse to talk to the police.

That’s how our Constitution works.

DÃ©sirÃ©e

she disappeared in September? do you have information we don’t? Her last know communication was in December.

You’re sounded more like a defense lawyer, more interested in protecting Lisa Miller than in someone who wants to see justice done.

George78

“George, your citations are meaningless. Show me a citation that shows the percentage of parental kidnappings where a parent has left the country versus the percentage who have not. Unless you have that you have nothing to back up your suggestion that its more likely than not that someone like Miller has fled the country.”

You don’t get to decide which citations are meaningless. Obviously there is enough of a problem that the steps in the links that I provided were taken. If you want statistics, use Google, I’m not your personal researcher. If you would like to pay me, I’d be glad to provide you with statistics. :)

“And as we can see, its you whoâ€™s making accusations, not me. Its abundantly obvious from your posts that you take pleasure in the idea that Miller has left the country and that this will help her evade justice. Your loyalties are obvious and youâ€™re not fooling anyone, its obvious to any rational person. As you said, your accusations against those who dare to disagree with you is a demonstration of your bigotry.”

Laughable. You were the one that started throwing out nonsense about my “secret intentions” and “what I was thinking.” I merely called you on it. I never took any sides on this issue. I merely pointed out what my experience has shown me. I simply believe that the original post was off base with the calls for random questioning.

I understand that this case stirs emotion in people. Trust me, family law cases almost always invoke strong emotions from all sides.

However, you began rambling and accusing me. I simply called you on it. Anyone who reads the thread can see that.

“LOL, youâ€™re so full of it. That isnâ€™t remotely â€œgestapoâ€ tactics, its normal procedure in a just investigation. The Gestapo used torture and the most extreme of measures to get what they wanted. Your hyperbole is further proof that it is you who is the bigot and your loyalties are with the criminal Miller. We donâ€™t need no stinking crystal ball to see that.”

Again, you seem to think you know me, and know what I am thinking. I am curious as to how you obtained this psychic gift. Were you born with it?

For the record, accusing people of thinking a certain way is pretty bigoted. Especially since you know nothing about me.

George78

“If you are a potential suspect (as these people might be, as potential accomplices) itâ€™s probably better to get a lawyer first and not volunteer information that could falsely incriminate yourself. Otherwise, yes as an innocent bystander you should help.”

Agreed. As I said, the decision to help the police as a witness is a personal one, and I’ll not dictate to others how to respond.

As a general rule however, if the police have any questions regarding you, you should never respond. In any way other than to politely tell them that you refuse to speak to them.

When people willingly give up their Constitutional rights, freedom suffers as a result.

George78

“Whatâ€™s wrong with Georgeâ€™s input is his claim that Miller is almost certainly out of the country has no evidence to back it up. Admittedly I made a similar claim, but I did that primarily to point out the absurdity of Georgeâ€™s certainty, and to annoy George â€“ my claim remains as valid as his. Whatâ€™s further wrong with Georgeâ€™s input is his claim that Iâ€™m a lunatic for talking about his wishful thinking when in fact heâ€™s done the same with regards to me. If Iâ€™m a lunatic, so is George. Finally, whats wrong with Gerogeâ€™s input is his claim that I made accusations against him and that that makes me a bigot when in fact I made no accusations against him, but he in fact accused me of being a lunatic, which in his logic makes him the bigot.”

I am sorry, but you were the one who started with the accusations, accusing me of “thinking a certain way” and insinuating that you know where my loyalties lie. You don’t know me.

George78

“she disappeared in September? do you have information we donâ€™t? Her last know communication was in December.”

Did you read the original post? Sheriff’s officials have talked to neighbors. Miller apparently vanished in September.

“Youâ€™re sounded more like a defense lawyer, more interested in protecting Lisa Miller than in someone who wants to see justice done.”

Constitutional protections are afforded to everyone, whether we like them or not. Freedom is tough like that.

John

I think it is unlikely she left the country. Most custody cases that involve parents taking children out of the country involve parents with an international connection. Unless Ms. Miller had dual citizenship or some family support in another country, it seems unlikely to be a very attractive alternative to hiding in the US, a country where she could more easily blend in.

Further, Americans cannot just live indefinitely in other countries. Visa’s expire. People require work permits. Being an illegal alien is difficult in any country.

Time will tell. I do hope that Ms. Miller and the child are found, the sooner the better.

Timothy Kincaid

Please. This is getting excruciating.

No more arguing about who started what and who is really the bigot. No more assumptions about others’ motivations or what they wish.

Jason D