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	<title>Comments on: A Fishing Expedition to &#8220;Cure&#8221; the Gay: Bad Parents? Difficult Birth? Freemasonry?</title>
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	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61345</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I’d just like to draw attention to the news that, according to the UK’s Pink News website, the psychiatrist whom Patrick Strudwick called “David” in his article in The Independent is the same “very lovely psychiatrist” who Mrs Iris Robinson said works with her and who she said is very good at “curing” gays. See:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/02/02/iris-robinsons-gay-cure-psychiatrists-methods-exposed/#</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’d just like to draw attention to the news that, according to the UK’s Pink News website, the psychiatrist whom Patrick Strudwick called “David” in his article in The Independent is the same “very lovely psychiatrist” who Mrs Iris Robinson said works with her and who she said is very good at “curing” gays. See:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/02/02/iris-robinsons-gay-cure-psychiatrists-methods-exposed/#" rel="nofollow">http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/02/02/iris-robinsons-gay-cure-psychiatrists-methods-exposed/#</a></p>
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		<title>By: Another Cause of the Gay &#8211; Masons &#124; Deep Something</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61308</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Cause of the Gay &#8211; Masons &#124; Deep Something</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61308</guid>
		<description>[...] tip to the hardworking folks at Box Turtle Bulletin who bring this report of an English journalist&#8217;s forray undercover into the world gay [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] tip to the hardworking folks at Box Turtle Bulletin who bring this report of an English journalist&#8217;s forray undercover into the world gay [...]</p>
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		<title>By: B John</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61303</link>
		<dc:creator>B John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61303</guid>
		<description>Ray, you nailed it. I was just remembering Ms. Cleo of TV Ad fame, and thinking maybe this therapist got her start working in the Ms. Cleo phone bank.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, you nailed it. I was just remembering Ms. Cleo of TV Ad fame, and thinking maybe this therapist got her start working in the Ms. Cleo phone bank.</p>
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		<title>By: George Bingham</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61289</link>
		<dc:creator>George Bingham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61289</guid>
		<description>I think the thing that makes  religious people think they are superior (especially to G&amp;Ls) is &quot;sanctification&quot;. Because of their faith and &quot;adherence&quot; to biblical &quot;truths&quot;, they are morally superior to the abominations that they think Gays and Lesbians are. Therefore, whatever they think and do to &quot;help&quot; us unfortunate hellbound perverts is &quot;good&quot;. 

IF kids growing up into SSA had not been subjected to society&#039;s prejudice all of their lives already, then I think the normal development of gay &amp; lesbian teens would mirror heteros much more closely than it does now. I.e. in general, gays and lesbians would date normally, drift into longer term relationships as they mature, and generally choose a life partner to marry. 

Of course, no one is perfect and there will be breakups and divorces - just as there are in the hetero communities, but in general, I bet there would be little difference between how straights live and how gays live. 

I think the above paragraphs are analogous to MLKs &quot;I have a dream&quot; speech, and I do think society is heading that way... just not as quickly as we&#039;d like for it to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the thing that makes  religious people think they are superior (especially to G&amp;Ls) is &#8220;sanctification&#8221;. Because of their faith and &#8220;adherence&#8221; to biblical &#8220;truths&#8221;, they are morally superior to the abominations that they think Gays and Lesbians are. Therefore, whatever they think and do to &#8220;help&#8221; us unfortunate hellbound perverts is &#8220;good&#8221;. </p>
<p>IF kids growing up into SSA had not been subjected to society&#8217;s prejudice all of their lives already, then I think the normal development of gay &amp; lesbian teens would mirror heteros much more closely than it does now. I.e. in general, gays and lesbians would date normally, drift into longer term relationships as they mature, and generally choose a life partner to marry. </p>
<p>Of course, no one is perfect and there will be breakups and divorces &#8211; just as there are in the hetero communities, but in general, I bet there would be little difference between how straights live and how gays live. </p>
<p>I think the above paragraphs are analogous to MLKs &#8220;I have a dream&#8221; speech, and I do think society is heading that way&#8230; just not as quickly as we&#8217;d like for it to.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61287</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Ms. DuCasse.   I was just asking because Sean Hannity is so revered by so many of my co-workers.

I, too, am getting tired of heterosexuals believing how superior they are.  Just last week I went to lunch with a friend and she mentioned that if I were to shack up with another guy and try to adopt or have surrogate kids via some lesbian (as in the news here in Utah lately) we should give up any thought of raising children.  The reasoning:  Kids in school would be unmerciful with teasing anyone from a non-heterosexual household.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ms. DuCasse.   I was just asking because Sean Hannity is so revered by so many of my co-workers.</p>
<p>I, too, am getting tired of heterosexuals believing how superior they are.  Just last week I went to lunch with a friend and she mentioned that if I were to shack up with another guy and try to adopt or have surrogate kids via some lesbian (as in the news here in Utah lately) we should give up any thought of raising children.  The reasoning:  Kids in school would be unmerciful with teasing anyone from a non-heterosexual household.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph O'Leary</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61282</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph O'Leary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61282</guid>
		<description>Is deception such as the journalist practiced defensible? In the case of an evil cult, a good case can be made for such espionage. The pretended &quot;patient&quot; in any case seems to have offered an honest presentation of his &quot;symptoms&quot;, leaving it up to the &quot;therapist&quot; to reveal her monstrous mode of thinking. A gay friend of mine in Japan was sent to a shrink by his Catholic mother, and was told it was his mother who should see him. In the USA she would no doubt have been guided to quacks like Nicolosi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is deception such as the journalist practiced defensible? In the case of an evil cult, a good case can be made for such espionage. The pretended &#8220;patient&#8221; in any case seems to have offered an honest presentation of his &#8220;symptoms&#8221;, leaving it up to the &#8220;therapist&#8221; to reveal her monstrous mode of thinking. A gay friend of mine in Japan was sent to a shrink by his Catholic mother, and was told it was his mother who should see him. In the USA she would no doubt have been guided to quacks like Nicolosi.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61278</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61278</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to join Tara in applauding Ray. Brilliance.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to join Tara in applauding Ray. Brilliance.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61274</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 04:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61274</guid>
		<description>Quo,
The therapist in question is actually committing insurance fraud.  Doubtless, that escaped your notice since faith comes with the license to behave like a sociopath if you&#039;re doing &quot;God&#039;s will.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quo,<br />
The therapist in question is actually committing insurance fraud.  Doubtless, that escaped your notice since faith comes with the license to behave like a sociopath if you&#8217;re doing &#8220;God&#8217;s will.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tara TASW</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61273</link>
		<dc:creator>Tara TASW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 03:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61273</guid>
		<description>Ray, your &quot;fishing&quot; story was a work of art, hilarious and utterly accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, your &#8220;fishing&#8221; story was a work of art, hilarious and utterly accurate.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan DuCasse</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/01/31/19986/comment-page-1#comment-61268</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan DuCasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 00:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=19986#comment-61268</guid>
		<description>Hi Cowboy, 
It was maybe eight years or so ago. Maybe longer. It was about the time Nicolosi&#039;s book &quot;How To Prevent Homosexuality In Your Child&quot; came out.
  That was the first time I had a long talk with Wayne Besen and gotten to know him since.

     A short time before this, I had been trying to find out exactly WHAT this ex gay therapy and so on was.
I went so far as to contact Living Waters and Desert Stream and it was VERY difficult to get anyone to tell me about it and their methods and so on just as an interested party.

  I thought that considering they have billboards, ads and all manner of claims that it works and THOUSANDS of people are living proof, I would have thought they&#039;d be proud and show off exactly what they did and present more than the same people over and over again as examples.

  But they don&#039;t operate like that. Especially in forums THEY don&#039;t control or feel are as conservatively anti gay as they are, like Sean Hannity.

  One of my questions to Nicolosi was based on his weak father, strong mother meme.
  He was really pushing that.
So I asked him, as a black woman, given his assertion, why there wasn&#039;t a disproportionate amount of black men who were gay.
Many black children, especially boys ARE raised by single black mothers, very strong ones the successful black men will attest.
   Or why, in definitively patriarchal societies like Orthodox Jews or Chinese families, homosexuality remains a constant without female based influence.

  He chose to not answer me, behaved as if I hadn&#039;t asked it.
And even Hannity tried to get him to go back to that, and he didn&#039;t.
So there ya go.
That was just one example.

  My biggest point is, what&#039;s the big frigging DEAL about being heterosexual?
 You still might have relationship/dating issues. Parenthood and professional problems regardless.

  Heterosexuality doesn&#039;t make the kinds of things that make all of the above unsatisfactory suddenly go away.
 You can still be a sex fiend, have issues with alcohol or prescription drugs, your kids could still hate you.

   And you still can go bald or have saggy body parts.

  Heterosexuality is NO magic bullet for what your failures...or triumphs are.
The main difference is less scrutiny and having to answer to something you&#039;re not responsible for at every turn.

  It&#039;s not such a big deal being a heterosexual and I REALLY wish the ex gay industry would quit making it out to be something to do with one&#039;s virtue or character when it isn&#039;t.
It simply isn&#039;t blamed for one&#039;s character WEAKNESS.
Homosexuality isn&#039;t THE weakness.
 No matter what the Nicolosi&#039;s of the world like to say.

   It&#039;s a similar folly like making dark skin or femininity or what it&#039;s defined as, AS a part of one&#039;s character and a flawed one at that.

   Sexual orientation is SUCH a superficial thing for the ex gay industry to focus on.

  Another sexual orientation worth studying is ASEXUALITY. I&#039;ve read more articles and looked at what asexuals felt about themselves and their place in society.
  And there are some who are attracted to their same gender too, interestingly.
They just aren&#039;t attracted to sex at all.
   Now would Nicolosi try and call these people immoral or harmful to society?
Would he support programs to force them into programs to make them like sex, or face the consequences of a life in hostile distrust from society?

   Why no interest in making people who don&#039;t like sex, fake it or feel utterly horrible otherwise?

     I&#039;ve been curious about the question of what it would take to make a heterosexual feel attraction for sex with their same sex?
Has Nicolosi made any COMPARISONS to what it would require and the effect of that?

   Besides, all one really has to do is ask a straight person what it would take to make them gay and if they say they&#039;d rather be set on fire, they answer their own question about how NOT a choice it is to be gay, and what it would take to NEVER change at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Cowboy,<br />
It was maybe eight years or so ago. Maybe longer. It was about the time Nicolosi&#8217;s book &#8220;How To Prevent Homosexuality In Your Child&#8221; came out.<br />
  That was the first time I had a long talk with Wayne Besen and gotten to know him since.</p>
<p>     A short time before this, I had been trying to find out exactly WHAT this ex gay therapy and so on was.<br />
I went so far as to contact Living Waters and Desert Stream and it was VERY difficult to get anyone to tell me about it and their methods and so on just as an interested party.</p>
<p>  I thought that considering they have billboards, ads and all manner of claims that it works and THOUSANDS of people are living proof, I would have thought they&#8217;d be proud and show off exactly what they did and present more than the same people over and over again as examples.</p>
<p>  But they don&#8217;t operate like that. Especially in forums THEY don&#8217;t control or feel are as conservatively anti gay as they are, like Sean Hannity.</p>
<p>  One of my questions to Nicolosi was based on his weak father, strong mother meme.<br />
  He was really pushing that.<br />
So I asked him, as a black woman, given his assertion, why there wasn&#8217;t a disproportionate amount of black men who were gay.<br />
Many black children, especially boys ARE raised by single black mothers, very strong ones the successful black men will attest.<br />
   Or why, in definitively patriarchal societies like Orthodox Jews or Chinese families, homosexuality remains a constant without female based influence.</p>
<p>  He chose to not answer me, behaved as if I hadn&#8217;t asked it.<br />
And even Hannity tried to get him to go back to that, and he didn&#8217;t.<br />
So there ya go.<br />
That was just one example.</p>
<p>  My biggest point is, what&#8217;s the big frigging DEAL about being heterosexual?<br />
 You still might have relationship/dating issues. Parenthood and professional problems regardless.</p>
<p>  Heterosexuality doesn&#8217;t make the kinds of things that make all of the above unsatisfactory suddenly go away.<br />
 You can still be a sex fiend, have issues with alcohol or prescription drugs, your kids could still hate you.</p>
<p>   And you still can go bald or have saggy body parts.</p>
<p>  Heterosexuality is NO magic bullet for what your failures&#8230;or triumphs are.<br />
The main difference is less scrutiny and having to answer to something you&#8217;re not responsible for at every turn.</p>
<p>  It&#8217;s not such a big deal being a heterosexual and I REALLY wish the ex gay industry would quit making it out to be something to do with one&#8217;s virtue or character when it isn&#8217;t.<br />
It simply isn&#8217;t blamed for one&#8217;s character WEAKNESS.<br />
Homosexuality isn&#8217;t THE weakness.<br />
 No matter what the Nicolosi&#8217;s of the world like to say.</p>
<p>   It&#8217;s a similar folly like making dark skin or femininity or what it&#8217;s defined as, AS a part of one&#8217;s character and a flawed one at that.</p>
<p>   Sexual orientation is SUCH a superficial thing for the ex gay industry to focus on.</p>
<p>  Another sexual orientation worth studying is ASEXUALITY. I&#8217;ve read more articles and looked at what asexuals felt about themselves and their place in society.<br />
  And there are some who are attracted to their same gender too, interestingly.<br />
They just aren&#8217;t attracted to sex at all.<br />
   Now would Nicolosi try and call these people immoral or harmful to society?<br />
Would he support programs to force them into programs to make them like sex, or face the consequences of a life in hostile distrust from society?</p>
<p>   Why no interest in making people who don&#8217;t like sex, fake it or feel utterly horrible otherwise?</p>
<p>     I&#8217;ve been curious about the question of what it would take to make a heterosexual feel attraction for sex with their same sex?<br />
Has Nicolosi made any COMPARISONS to what it would require and the effect of that?</p>
<p>   Besides, all one really has to do is ask a straight person what it would take to make them gay and if they say they&#8217;d rather be set on fire, they answer their own question about how NOT a choice it is to be gay, and what it would take to NEVER change at all.</p>
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