<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Religious Groups in UK beg for religious marriage freedom</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 21:17:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fred in the UK</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-63369</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred in the UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 08:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-63369</guid>
		<description>Just to update everyone. The House of Lords voted 95 to 21 for an amendment to the Equalities Bill, currently making its way through Parliament, which would remove the ban on religious Civil Partnerships. I would be surprised if the House of Commons were to vote down this amendment. If the Bill has not been enacted by Parliament before the forthcoming dissolution of Parliament then the entire Bill will be lost, however I think chances are that will not happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to update everyone. The House of Lords voted 95 to 21 for an amendment to the Equalities Bill, currently making its way through Parliament, which would remove the ban on religious Civil Partnerships. I would be surprised if the House of Commons were to vote down this amendment. If the Bill has not been enacted by Parliament before the forthcoming dissolution of Parliament then the entire Bill will be lost, however I think chances are that will not happen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RCM</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62911</link>
		<dc:creator>RCM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62911</guid>
		<description>Just in case it helps anybody who is interested in this, here is a simple guide to UK law on the matter:

http://www.thesite.org/sexandrelationships/couples/marriage/ukmarriagelaws

and here is the government on the subject:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Yourrightsandresponsibilities/DG_10026937

Since we don&#039;t have a written constitution, it is often just assumed that what is not banned is permitted.  Hence, you can worship the Giant Tomato, jump over a fence holding someone&#039;s hand and believe it makes you married to them, and as Fred said, bless all the haddock in the north sea, and the law won&#039;t stop you, it just won&#039;t acknowledge you either.  However, I have just found this 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/libe/elsj/charter/art10/default_en.htm&quot;Human Rights Act

Relevant bit to UK quoted below:

Article 9
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
Freedom to manifest one&#039;s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case it helps anybody who is interested in this, here is a simple guide to UK law on the matter:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thesite.org/sexandrelationships/couples/marriage/ukmarriagelaws" rel="nofollow">http://www.thesite.org/sexandrelationships/couples/marriage/ukmarriagelaws</a></p>
<p>and here is the government on the subject:<br />
<a href="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Yourrightsandresponsibilities/DG_10026937" rel="nofollow">http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Yourrightsandresponsibilities/DG_10026937</a></p>
<p>Since we don&#8217;t have a written constitution, it is often just assumed that what is not banned is permitted.  Hence, you can worship the Giant Tomato, jump over a fence holding someone&#8217;s hand and believe it makes you married to them, and as Fred said, bless all the haddock in the north sea, and the law won&#8217;t stop you, it just won&#8217;t acknowledge you either.  However, I have just found this </p>
<p><a href="http://www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/libe/elsj/charter/art10/default_en.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.europarl.europa.eu/comparl/libe/elsj/charter/art10/default_en.htm</a>&#8220;Human Rights Act</p>
<p>Relevant bit to UK quoted below:</p>
<p>Article 9<br />
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.<br />
Freedom to manifest one&#8217;s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RCM</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62907</link>
		<dc:creator>RCM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62907</guid>
		<description>Rob in the UK, 

(I am a her, incidentally.)

On the issue of why Civil Unions are legal in the UK, I thought they were legalised in order to avoid constantly getting sued, but I have obviously got it confused with permitting gay people to serve in the armed forces. Sorry everybody.
  
Fred
&quot;The unwritten nature of the British Constitution means there is always plenty of scope for confusion.&quot;

That is true, but I&#039;m not helping much either!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob in the UK, </p>
<p>(I am a her, incidentally.)</p>
<p>On the issue of why Civil Unions are legal in the UK, I thought they were legalised in order to avoid constantly getting sued, but I have obviously got it confused with permitting gay people to serve in the armed forces. Sorry everybody.</p>
<p>Fred<br />
&#8220;The unwritten nature of the British Constitution means there is always plenty of scope for confusion.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is true, but I&#8217;m not helping much either!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fred in the UK</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62904</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred in the UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62904</guid>
		<description>Timothy,

The unwritten nature of the British Constitution means there is always plenty of scope for confusion.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
It is the COE who bans the blessing of same-sex unions.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am not sure to what you are referring to here. Are you referring to the Church of England&#039;s (CoE) control of its own liturgy and thereby trying to stop individual priests from offering blessings to same-sex couples? If so then you should be aware that a number of priests have quietly performed blessings anyway. Alternatively, are you referring to the position of CofE Bishops within the House of Lords (the Lords Spiritual)? Parliament as a whole made the decision that Civil Partnership ceremonies are to be religion free events, it is true that the Lords Spiritual did not vote against that decision. However only 26 Bishops have seats in the House of Lords (out of a total of 44 diocesan bishops) but that is only a small fraction of the total of 724 members of the House of Lords (as of October 2009). In truth the power of the Lords Spiritual to affect legislation is pretty small.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Ironically, the vicars cannot refuse a COE wedding to those who don’t share the faith, but cannot perform one for a same-sex couple who does. Or so it seems from what I read.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree about the irony. I do not believe that vicars are &lt;i&gt;actually compelled&lt;/i&gt; to perform weddings on any couple, however as the Established Church it is a strong convention that the CofE will marry all legally eligible couples.

I must agree with Rob in disagreeing with RCM. Civil Partnership / Same-sex marriage has nothing to do with the EU. Within the EU there are members with full same-sex marriage e.g. Spain, members with something nearly same-sex marriage e.g. U.K., members with some recognition, significantly less than marriage e.g. France and members with no recognition of same-sex couples e.g. Italy. RCM is correct that the EU does not have authority over churches, however where RCM states that the EU had control over human rights I wonder whether (s)he is confusing the EU with the Council of Europe which is the controlling body related to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR)? Article 12 of the ECHR is the right to marry, however the European Court on Human Rights has found that right only exists for opposite-sex couples, for example, in Cossey v. The United Kingdom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy,</p>
<p>The unwritten nature of the British Constitution means there is always plenty of scope for confusion.</p>
<blockquote><p>
It is the COE who bans the blessing of same-sex unions.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I am not sure to what you are referring to here. Are you referring to the Church of England&#8217;s (CoE) control of its own liturgy and thereby trying to stop individual priests from offering blessings to same-sex couples? If so then you should be aware that a number of priests have quietly performed blessings anyway. Alternatively, are you referring to the position of CofE Bishops within the House of Lords (the Lords Spiritual)? Parliament as a whole made the decision that Civil Partnership ceremonies are to be religion free events, it is true that the Lords Spiritual did not vote against that decision. However only 26 Bishops have seats in the House of Lords (out of a total of 44 diocesan bishops) but that is only a small fraction of the total of 724 members of the House of Lords (as of October 2009). In truth the power of the Lords Spiritual to affect legislation is pretty small.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Ironically, the vicars cannot refuse a COE wedding to those who don’t share the faith, but cannot perform one for a same-sex couple who does. Or so it seems from what I read.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree about the irony. I do not believe that vicars are <i>actually compelled</i> to perform weddings on any couple, however as the Established Church it is a strong convention that the CofE will marry all legally eligible couples.</p>
<p>I must agree with Rob in disagreeing with RCM. Civil Partnership / Same-sex marriage has nothing to do with the EU. Within the EU there are members with full same-sex marriage e.g. Spain, members with something nearly same-sex marriage e.g. U.K., members with some recognition, significantly less than marriage e.g. France and members with no recognition of same-sex couples e.g. Italy. RCM is correct that the EU does not have authority over churches, however where RCM states that the EU had control over human rights I wonder whether (s)he is confusing the EU with the Council of Europe which is the controlling body related to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR)? Article 12 of the ECHR is the right to marry, however the European Court on Human Rights has found that right only exists for opposite-sex couples, for example, in Cossey v. The United Kingdom</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rob in the UK</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62902</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob in the UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62902</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like both to back up and to dispute what RCM says in her/his second post (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563#comment-62900).

Because the law in England and Wales recognises &quot;pure&quot; civil marriages and marriages carried out by certain ministers of religion, and the Civil Partnership Act modelled Civil Partners on the &quot;pure&quot; civil marriage (which doesn&#039;t allow any religious elements), Civil Partnership ceremonies similarly do not allow religious elements as part of the ceremony (though religions are free to conduct stand-alone ceremonies of a purely religious nature).

Where RCM is wrong is in saying &quot;Since the reason that Civil Unions are legal in the UK is that we have to allow it under EU law&quot;. Lots of countries in the EU have neither gay marriage nor Civil Unions, and there&#039;s no proposal that they should. EU legislation does outlaw employment discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, but the rest of the UK legislation on &quot;gay rights&quot; is purely a matter that Parliament has chosen to enact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like both to back up and to dispute what RCM says in her/his second post (<a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563#comment-62900" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563#comment-62900</a>).</p>
<p>Because the law in England and Wales recognises &#8220;pure&#8221; civil marriages and marriages carried out by certain ministers of religion, and the Civil Partnership Act modelled Civil Partners on the &#8220;pure&#8221; civil marriage (which doesn&#8217;t allow any religious elements), Civil Partnership ceremonies similarly do not allow religious elements as part of the ceremony (though religions are free to conduct stand-alone ceremonies of a purely religious nature).</p>
<p>Where RCM is wrong is in saying &#8220;Since the reason that Civil Unions are legal in the UK is that we have to allow it under EU law&#8221;. Lots of countries in the EU have neither gay marriage nor Civil Unions, and there&#8217;s no proposal that they should. EU legislation does outlaw employment discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, but the rest of the UK legislation on &#8220;gay rights&#8221; is purely a matter that Parliament has chosen to enact.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RCM</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62900</link>
		<dc:creator>RCM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62900</guid>
		<description>Werdna, all I meant was that the ban on religious activity in Civil Union ceremonies is because they are civil ceremonies, not because they are same sex  unions.
 
CoE ministers are also automatically registrars, and can therefore legally marry people in religious ceremonies.  A few other religions have special arrangements, so that if a marriage ceremony has taken place, then the minister of that faith can get the marriage registered under the law.  Since the reason that Civil Unions are legal in the UK is that we have to allow it under EU law, and EU law does not have authority over our churches, only our human rights, that is how come we are in this position.  No one decided to actually make a rule forbidding gay people from religious ceremonies, they just didn&#039;t have any access to marriage at all (because of prejudice throughout history), and then our membership of the EU enabled official gay unions as a human right.  Some of our minority religious groups who wish to be allowed to register gay unions, in the same way as they currently can mixed sex couples, are just making their point to the lawmakers, that is all.  

We have a rather busy General Election coming up any time now, these small religious groups are probably letting the politicians know what they want.

Maybe that helped Timothy with his confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Werdna, all I meant was that the ban on religious activity in Civil Union ceremonies is because they are civil ceremonies, not because they are same sex  unions.</p>
<p>CoE ministers are also automatically registrars, and can therefore legally marry people in religious ceremonies.  A few other religions have special arrangements, so that if a marriage ceremony has taken place, then the minister of that faith can get the marriage registered under the law.  Since the reason that Civil Unions are legal in the UK is that we have to allow it under EU law, and EU law does not have authority over our churches, only our human rights, that is how come we are in this position.  No one decided to actually make a rule forbidding gay people from religious ceremonies, they just didn&#8217;t have any access to marriage at all (because of prejudice throughout history), and then our membership of the EU enabled official gay unions as a human right.  Some of our minority religious groups who wish to be allowed to register gay unions, in the same way as they currently can mixed sex couples, are just making their point to the lawmakers, that is all.  </p>
<p>We have a rather busy General Election coming up any time now, these small religious groups are probably letting the politicians know what they want.</p>
<p>Maybe that helped Timothy with his confusion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62899</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62899</guid>
		<description>Thanks, guys.  It&#039;s a bit confusing;  It is the COE who bans the blessing of same-sex unions.  Ironically, the vicars cannot refuse a COE wedding to those who don&#039;t share the faith, but cannot perform one for a same-sex couple who does.  Or so it seems from what I read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, guys.  It&#8217;s a bit confusing;  It is the COE who bans the blessing of same-sex unions.  Ironically, the vicars cannot refuse a COE wedding to those who don&#8217;t share the faith, but cannot perform one for a same-sex couple who does.  Or so it seems from what I read.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fred in the UK</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62898</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred in the UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62898</guid>
		<description>Timothy (TRiG),

As far as I am aware, you are correct, non-religious weddings must be completely non-religious.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Civil Partnerships are available only at registry offices.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is not strictly true, they are also available at other licensed non-religious premises, e.g. hotels, stately homes, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy (TRiG),</p>
<p>As far as I am aware, you are correct, non-religious weddings must be completely non-religious.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Civil Partnerships are available only at registry offices.
</p></blockquote>
<p>This is not strictly true, they are also available at other licensed non-religious premises, e.g. hotels, stately homes, etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62896</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62896</guid>
		<description>I could be wrong, but I think that any ceremony which takes place in a Registry Office must be devoid of religious content. For example, very few mosques in the UK are registered to perform weddings, so Muslim couples will marry in a non-religious ceremony in a Registry Office, and have a Muslim marriage in a mosque later. Or vice versa. (I heard of a straight couple getting married in a Registry Office who had to fight to be allowed to use a certain piece of music, because it had been used as the setting of a hymn and was therefore &quot;religious&quot; though it was not originally composed as such.)

(In France, all weddings are non-religious and are performed at the Town Hall.)

Civil Partnerships are the same: they&#039;re performed at the Registry Office, and they are non-religious. The only difference is that churches etc. &lt;b&gt;cannot&lt;/b&gt; register to perform civil partnerships themselves, the way they can register to perform marriages themselves. Civil Partnerships are available only at registry offices. (Personally, I prefer that, and wish it was the same for marriages, as in France: it helps to keep clear the distinction between the legal and the religious aspects.)

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could be wrong, but I think that any ceremony which takes place in a Registry Office must be devoid of religious content. For example, very few mosques in the UK are registered to perform weddings, so Muslim couples will marry in a non-religious ceremony in a Registry Office, and have a Muslim marriage in a mosque later. Or vice versa. (I heard of a straight couple getting married in a Registry Office who had to fight to be allowed to use a certain piece of music, because it had been used as the setting of a hymn and was therefore &#8220;religious&#8221; though it was not originally composed as such.)</p>
<p>(In France, all weddings are non-religious and are performed at the Town Hall.)</p>
<p>Civil Partnerships are the same: they&#8217;re performed at the Registry Office, and they are non-religious. The only difference is that churches etc. <b>cannot</b> register to perform civil partnerships themselves, the way they can register to perform marriages themselves. Civil Partnerships are available only at registry offices. (Personally, I prefer that, and wish it was the same for marriages, as in France: it helps to keep clear the distinction between the legal and the religious aspects.)</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fred in the UK</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/23/20563/comment-page-1#comment-62891</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred in the UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20563#comment-62891</guid>
		<description>Werdna,

I hope Timothy doesn&#039;t mind me answering your question. The letter was published in The Times (of London) newspaper. In Britain the convention is that such letters are technically addressed to the Editor, although they are, in effect, addressed to the reader. The full text of the letter can be read &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article7036547.ece&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Werdna,</p>
<p>I hope Timothy doesn&#8217;t mind me answering your question. The letter was published in The Times (of London) newspaper. In Britain the convention is that such letters are technically addressed to the Editor, although they are, in effect, addressed to the reader. The full text of the letter can be read <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article7036547.ece" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
