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	<title>Comments on: The great Lutheran schism that wasn&#8217;t</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Piper</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63189</link>
		<dc:creator>Piper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 02:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63189</guid>
		<description>As an ELCA member since birth I&#039;ve been watching all of this with some degree of apprehension, combined with laughter (when reading outsiders perspectives on Why on earth it was taking so long!)  Unless you understand ELCA Lutheran culture the last 7 years have been maddening, even to us insiders the church leadership takes a long time deciding things.  

My church for example at our last congregational meeting had a motion to bar the church leadership (our church council) from considering a man or woman in a committed same-sex relationship for a call (asking them to be our pastor), and it was decided to take a year to meditate on the proposal, so that no one would make a rash decision.  I don&#039;t think we&#039;ll pass it, at least in conversations with other church members I don&#039;t think people feel passionate enough about this to vote for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an ELCA member since birth I&#8217;ve been watching all of this with some degree of apprehension, combined with laughter (when reading outsiders perspectives on Why on earth it was taking so long!)  Unless you understand ELCA Lutheran culture the last 7 years have been maddening, even to us insiders the church leadership takes a long time deciding things.  </p>
<p>My church for example at our last congregational meeting had a motion to bar the church leadership (our church council) from considering a man or woman in a committed same-sex relationship for a call (asking them to be our pastor), and it was decided to take a year to meditate on the proposal, so that no one would make a rash decision.  I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;ll pass it, at least in conversations with other church members I don&#8217;t think people feel passionate enough about this to vote for it.</p>
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		<title>By: cd</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63095</link>
		<dc:creator>cd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63095</guid>
		<description>This sounds just like the ELCA Lutheran church I used to belong to.  Two things really matter in ELCA churches- no Catholicism in/from the pulpit, and decent quality to the post-worship assortment of baked goods, juices, and coffee.  Most other things tend to be regarded as someone else&#039;s problem.

The ELCA leadership tends to check with the Lutheran church leadership in Sweden about their experience with cultural matters coming down the pike.  That often makes for more realistic and pragmatic decisions than in other denominations.

The social reactionaries still leave ELCA churches for Missouri Synod ones.  The great wave of those left the ELCA during the Seventies and Eighties, as far as I know, and that has limited the amount of Culture War in the ELCA since.  The LCMS is currently in serious decline, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sounds just like the ELCA Lutheran church I used to belong to.  Two things really matter in ELCA churches- no Catholicism in/from the pulpit, and decent quality to the post-worship assortment of baked goods, juices, and coffee.  Most other things tend to be regarded as someone else&#8217;s problem.</p>
<p>The ELCA leadership tends to check with the Lutheran church leadership in Sweden about their experience with cultural matters coming down the pike.  That often makes for more realistic and pragmatic decisions than in other denominations.</p>
<p>The social reactionaries still leave ELCA churches for Missouri Synod ones.  The great wave of those left the ELCA during the Seventies and Eighties, as far as I know, and that has limited the amount of Culture War in the ELCA since.  The LCMS is currently in serious decline, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Ephilei</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63068</link>
		<dc:creator>Ephilei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 01:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63068</guid>
		<description>This is fantastic news! I was truly fearful the ELCA decision would create much bickering and fighting. Some is inevitable, of course, but I&#039;m so happy it&#039;s so little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is fantastic news! I was truly fearful the ELCA decision would create much bickering and fighting. Some is inevitable, of course, but I&#8217;m so happy it&#8217;s so little.</p>
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		<title>By: Frijondi</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63061</link>
		<dc:creator>Frijondi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63061</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not so sure how Anglican the Anglican schism really is, at least in the US. 

The ranks of socially conservative Episcopalians, especially the ones who are currently trying to appropriate the term &quot;Anglican&quot; to themselves alone, have been pumped up by members of other denominations who would love to see an Anglican schism over gay issues.  The Institute for Religion and Democracy has been targeting the Episcopal Church for years in this way.

The Anglican Church in North America web site lists a number of member churches with decidedly un-Anglican sounding names, such as the Anglican Bible Church in Windsor, CA.  According to that church&#039;s web site, it&#039;s the result of a merger between an Anglican church and a non-denominational one.  From an Episcopalian point of view, that is just plain bizarre.  The ACNA site also uses language that seems borrowed from fundamentalism and the neo-pentecostal movement -- there&#039;s a lot about &quot;transformation&quot; and &quot;church planting.&quot; 

Episcopalians just don&#039;t talk like that -- at least, we didn&#039;t use to.  Particularly not the high church Episcopalians, who once upon a time were the ones most likely to prefer the term &quot;Anglican,&quot; out of fondness for, well, England, the Oxford Movement, smells and bells, boys&#039; choirs, watercress sandwiches, and the blue haired matrons with straw hats who keep trying to foist their daughters on the stubbornly single curate...  All that could be very annoying at times, but I dislike what seems to have replaced it even more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not so sure how Anglican the Anglican schism really is, at least in the US. </p>
<p>The ranks of socially conservative Episcopalians, especially the ones who are currently trying to appropriate the term &#8220;Anglican&#8221; to themselves alone, have been pumped up by members of other denominations who would love to see an Anglican schism over gay issues.  The Institute for Religion and Democracy has been targeting the Episcopal Church for years in this way.</p>
<p>The Anglican Church in North America web site lists a number of member churches with decidedly un-Anglican sounding names, such as the Anglican Bible Church in Windsor, CA.  According to that church&#8217;s web site, it&#8217;s the result of a merger between an Anglican church and a non-denominational one.  From an Episcopalian point of view, that is just plain bizarre.  The ACNA site also uses language that seems borrowed from fundamentalism and the neo-pentecostal movement &#8212; there&#8217;s a lot about &#8220;transformation&#8221; and &#8220;church planting.&#8221; </p>
<p>Episcopalians just don&#8217;t talk like that &#8212; at least, we didn&#8217;t use to.  Particularly not the high church Episcopalians, who once upon a time were the ones most likely to prefer the term &#8220;Anglican,&#8221; out of fondness for, well, England, the Oxford Movement, smells and bells, boys&#8217; choirs, watercress sandwiches, and the blue haired matrons with straw hats who keep trying to foist their daughters on the stubbornly single curate&#8230;  All that could be very annoying at times, but I dislike what seems to have replaced it even more.</p>
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		<title>By: e2c</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63054</link>
		<dc:creator>e2c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63054</guid>
		<description>&quot;Heartening&quot; in the sense that few people actually *are* leaving, that is! (Wish i could rewrite part of my last comment; please feel free to merge these two.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Heartening&#8221; in the sense that few people actually *are* leaving, that is! (Wish i could rewrite part of my last comment; please feel free to merge these two.)</p>
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		<title>By: e2c</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63051</link>
		<dc:creator>e2c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63051</guid>
		<description>There *was* a big schism in the MO Synod over biblical inerrancy back in the 70s, but you know... I think most Lutherans are more amiable (and less intensely political) than many in The Episcopal Church(es) here in the US, also abroad. 

I&#039;m an ELCA member (was raised in the Lutheran Church in America, which is one of the groups that later merged into the LCA), and while I can imagine that *individuals* are worked up about the changes, I just can&#039;t see the ELCA fragmenting in the way that TEC has done. (Although I will admit to having been very opposed to the idea of the changes that were implemented this past year, back when they were in discussion 8+ years ago... when I was involved in evangelicalism. Being away from that atmosphere has brought a lot of changes for me personally, and I&#039;m by no means a &quot;liberal&quot; person re. doctrine. Am hoping that most ELCA members are coming from a similar place.)

At any rate, this post (and the linked articles) are very heartening!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There *was* a big schism in the MO Synod over biblical inerrancy back in the 70s, but you know&#8230; I think most Lutherans are more amiable (and less intensely political) than many in The Episcopal Church(es) here in the US, also abroad. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m an ELCA member (was raised in the Lutheran Church in America, which is one of the groups that later merged into the LCA), and while I can imagine that *individuals* are worked up about the changes, I just can&#8217;t see the ELCA fragmenting in the way that TEC has done. (Although I will admit to having been very opposed to the idea of the changes that were implemented this past year, back when they were in discussion 8+ years ago&#8230; when I was involved in evangelicalism. Being away from that atmosphere has brought a lot of changes for me personally, and I&#8217;m by no means a &#8220;liberal&#8221; person re. doctrine. Am hoping that most ELCA members are coming from a similar place.)</p>
<p>At any rate, this post (and the linked articles) are very heartening!</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63039</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63039</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a well written and thoughtful piece about the differences between the Episcopalian right wingers and the Lutherans.  I am not a member of either group (grew up Catholic) but have become quite aware of the extreme hatred of gays that is promulgated by many of these conservative Episcopalians under the guise of being true Christians.  A work computer left open to the site &quot;Stand Firm in Faith&quot; was an eye opener.  So was finding out that one of the biggest conservative Episcopal homophobic bloggers on the Internet lives in my relatively small community. As a third party observer I have been shocked at the hypocrisy of the ACNA and the hateful diatribes that are published on this site with such a sanctimonious attitude. This group seems to have forgotten that the majority of Episcopalians do not support discrimination, and that is the very reason why the Episcopal Church is moving forward with being more inclusive.  It&#039;s now clear that at least within the Episcopal Church these holier than though bigots are in the minority.  Pueblo, Colorado.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a well written and thoughtful piece about the differences between the Episcopalian right wingers and the Lutherans.  I am not a member of either group (grew up Catholic) but have become quite aware of the extreme hatred of gays that is promulgated by many of these conservative Episcopalians under the guise of being true Christians.  A work computer left open to the site &#8220;Stand Firm in Faith&#8221; was an eye opener.  So was finding out that one of the biggest conservative Episcopal homophobic bloggers on the Internet lives in my relatively small community. As a third party observer I have been shocked at the hypocrisy of the ACNA and the hateful diatribes that are published on this site with such a sanctimonious attitude. This group seems to have forgotten that the majority of Episcopalians do not support discrimination, and that is the very reason why the Episcopal Church is moving forward with being more inclusive.  It&#8217;s now clear that at least within the Episcopal Church these holier than though bigots are in the minority.  Pueblo, Colorado.</p>
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		<title>By: Pomo</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/02/26/20652/comment-page-1#comment-63038</link>
		<dc:creator>Pomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=20652#comment-63038</guid>
		<description>As a new Lutheran, I was very pleased and encouraged with how the ELCA went about this process. Their decisions this summer (which you mentioned above) do not mandate that a church ordain LGBT pastors or perform LGBT marriages. They only allow that churches that want to, can. It is a very live and let live approach that acknowledges differences of theology.

I am happy not as many churches have left but more than the 220 churches mentioned have stopped supporting the ELCA financially. So there are still plenty of churches that are pissed.

But yes, let the way the ELCA went about this (7 year process...) be a lesson to other denominations!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a new Lutheran, I was very pleased and encouraged with how the ELCA went about this process. Their decisions this summer (which you mentioned above) do not mandate that a church ordain LGBT pastors or perform LGBT marriages. They only allow that churches that want to, can. It is a very live and let live approach that acknowledges differences of theology.</p>
<p>I am happy not as many churches have left but more than the 220 churches mentioned have stopped supporting the ELCA financially. So there are still plenty of churches that are pissed.</p>
<p>But yes, let the way the ELCA went about this (7 year process&#8230;) be a lesson to other denominations!</p>
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