No, I didn’t miss the point. What I see is you coming here and whining about “ghetto gays” and how badly they reflect on you and how their lifestyle sucks but I don’t see anyone whining about your lifestyle, claiming it reflects badly on them and how it sucks. Its all you complaining about their lifestyle and no one complaining about your lifestyle. If you weren’t trying to stop them from living their lifestyle you wouldn’t be ranting about it. The “ghetto” gays are content to leave you to your lifestyle without complaint so why don’t you do the same.

1. You are defended the “leathermen, gym bunnies, draq queens, and freaks” “

“who don’t give a sh!t about acceptance or about gays who want acceptance.

No
This extra part is all you, Pin. I said nothing of the kind. You are connecting the dots between two ideas that are not necessarily connected. I defended “leathermen, gym bunnies, draq queens, and freaks” but I did not ascribe to them the attitude of “not giving a sh!t about acceptance or gays who want acceptance.” That’s you layering into what I said your own biases against those groups. As if to say leathermen, gym bunnies, drag queens, and freaks are by definition anti-integration. I plainly said the opposite.

2. You accused me of wanting all gays to be like “Ward and the Beaver”.

No, I accused you of nothing. Period. I did not even address you. I said this:

Somehow, some gays honestly think and will EVEN SAY OUT LOUD that we should not let “the freaks” out in public. That somehow, if we all looked just like Wally and the Beave that straight people would warm up to us, no problem. That this whole struggle for equality would be over in seconds. Complete and total lie.

I was illustrating a point of view that I have run into. I did not say it was yours. At that point in the conversation, I would have no reason to apply this very specifc mindset to you. It would’ve been unearned. You had not framed your argument in that way, and nothing I said even implied I thought you did. I am VERY careful about how I pick and choose my words. You’ll notice I did not say your name, I used the words “some gays”. If I were to accuse you of this mindset, I would’ve just said so directly. I’m not exactly known for beating around the bush, here or elsewhere.

That is the standard, black-and-white, ghetto gay POV. You perfectly represented yourself and your culture,

I’ll stop you right there. You know nothing of me, or “my culture”. Just for the record: I have lived in the gay neighborhoods of Chicago, but I do not anymore. I live with my monogamous, sober, partner of over 3 years in the suburbs. I don’t drink or smoke. Jon had some wine with dinner on Sunday (birthday party for our brother in law at Moms) but beyond that, I don’t remember the last time he had a drink. It’s 10pm here and he’s passed out on the couch with the Discovery Channel on. And no, it’s not because he’s on meth, it’s because he has to be at work at 5am tomorrow and he was waiting for me to get back home from my rehearsal. Most of our friends are straight, not that it matters, and none of our gay friends (even the ones that live in the “gay ghetto”) resemble in any way shape or form the absurd stereotype you keep laying at my feet. I have yet to meet any gay people, in the gayborhoods or elsewhere, who come anywhere close to what you describe. I’ve no doubt they exist, they just don’t seem to be very easy to find in Chicago.

which is very different from and separate from mine. And that’s exactly how you want it.

You knew nothing about me until moments ago, and you certainly have no clue what I want.

You think my “Ward Cleaver” culture sucks,

No, and I said nothing close to that.

I said this: “That somehow, if we all looked just like Wally and the Beave that straight people would warm up to us, no problem.”

My criticism is of the notion that supression of individuality would lead directly to equality. I never said I had a problem with Wally or the Beave. I just don’t think everyone wants to be Wally and The Beave, nor should they. Substitute in GI Joe, Martha Stewart, Bill Gates, or anyone else for “Wally and the Beave” and the point is exactly the same. Equality is not, and should not be contingent on conformity to some arbitrary standard. That’s the point.

and that is exactly how I feel about yours. We see eye-to-eye.”

I wonder if your attitude has changed now that you know something about me other than the stuff you pulled out of thin air. I suspect not, because it seems you’re more interested in raging against people than having conversations with them.

Jimmy made this statement:

“the stereotypical images of pride parades don’t accurately portray the reality of the lives of the vast majority of gay Americans.”

Is that statement

A) true

B) false

“I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone cherry pick and intentionally misrepresent what I’ve written this much or this badly.”

1. You are defended the “leathermen, gym bunnies, draq queens, and freaks” who don’t give a sh!t about acceptance or about gays who want acceptance.

2. You accused me of wanting all gays to be like “Ward and the Beaver”.

That is the standard, black-and-white, ghetto gay POV. You perfectly represented yourself and your culture, which is very different from and separate from mine. And that’s exactly how you want it. You think my “Ward Cleaver” culture sucks, and that is exactly how I feel about yours. We see eye-to-eye.

I invite you to check out our comments policy.

You might like to note are that we don’t allow derogatory terms, defamation of entire categories of people, or strawman arguments. You should consider those rules before posting again.

That being said, I do not “scornfully criticize gay people for wanting to distance themselves from ghetto gays and their freak culture.”

And I chose to point out that Jimmy was getting in his digs because, well, that’s what he was doing.

What I trying to understand is why YOU scornfully criticize gay people for wanting to distance themselves from ghetto gays and their freak culture. If not a pragmatic concern for “gay community”, then what?

You had at least two ways you could have prefaced Jimmy’s comments about pride parades:

Option A) “And Jimmy had some valid points some of the stereotypical behavior displayed at pride parades.”

Option B) “But Jimmy could not resist getting in his digs about the “not like me” gays with whom he finds so little in common.”

Why do you think Option B is a more fitting preface than Option A?

“Gays who are into sex and drugs and pride parades aren’t forcing you to do those things and aren’t forcing you to be their friends so you have no legitimate gripe.”

Likewise, gays who are trying to integrate aren’t trying to force ghetto gays to integrate, either. Way to miss the point.

Jason, I’m glad you disapprove of me. Your approval is the last thing that I want. I agree that you and your people stand in the way of gay acceptance. And I think you agree with me that you don’t want acceptance because that would preclude you and your friends from living your freaky lifestyle, which you wrongly equate with “being gay”. We are two very different people, inhabiting two very different communities with little in common except for our mutual contempt, and I think we both prefer it that way. I think that’s the common ground that can help us find mutual respect.”

Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone cherry pick and intentionally misrepresent what I’ve written this much or this badly. It’s like you read the bizarro world version of my post, where some of the words are the same, but everything else is the exact opposite both in tone and meaning.

Nor have I ever seen someone paint a life for me that doesn’t come anywhere close to what is actually going on. I mean, wow, I’m glad my life isn’t a movie, and this post from pin isn’t the trailer — everyone would be greatly disappointed.

I could write a lengthy response, but I think I’d get tired of writing “no, that’s not even close to the truth” that many times in a row.

Suffice to say, nice strawman. Was it fun beating him up?

You are mistaken in the motivations, attitudes, and beliefs that you have attributed to me.

If you are “trying to understand” and are willing to accept any advice, I’d suggest that you spend more time listening to others and less time telling them why you disagree with what you assume to be their opinions. You have made for yourself enemies that exist only in your own imagination.

While there are no doubt people who would not care for you or your chosen manner of living (that’s pretty much a given for everyone, gay or straight), at present you seem mostly to be tilting at windmills.

Gays who are into sex and drugs and pride parades aren’t forcing you to do those things and aren’t forcing you to be their friends so you have no legitimate gripe. You’re free to live your life as you choose so do so and stop whining about others doing the same.