Let’s just save our chat for later, so that we wouldn’t get banned from straying off topics :P lol

btw, a coalition of NGOs and lawyers from all kinds of fields are planning to sue the government and the police for banning the conference. They’re going to hold a press conference anytime soon.

This controversy is getting exciting :-)

On another note… you got the two of us dragging out all our photos from the past 15 years last night. We don’t look too different. I think we’ve aged rather gracefully :) It was fun to look over the photos — even the early ones only seem like yesterday.

Dale kept murmuring “Bogor” and “martabak manis” with a distant look in his eyes… maybe it’s time we returned to Bogor for a “Culinary Hunt”!

ps: this is the photo of Dale that sits on my desk. Of course it was raining — it’s Bogor!

Interesting story, and you should realize, this is what we are currently involved in. Fundamentalists in higher ups, but supportive people from the civil people.

http://iglhrc.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/threats-to-lgbt-in-surabaya-part-1/

All gay rights NGOs are going to have a large meeting anytime soon. They used to never talk about human rights, and most programs usually consists about HIV prevention. They are wanting to try for a new approach. But the members are all fidgeting. They are really also scared for planning this new approach.

ps: @grantdale, Bogor now has been a place famous for it’s foods. We even have a program called “Culinary Travel”. Me and my friends sometimes go to a “Culinary Hunt” in Bogor.

Your comments about who is and isn’t wearing the jilbab were also interesting. I’m not sure which way to think — people say different things. I guess it also depends on which part of the country. I agree that the jilbab has become something of ‘standard dress’ for many, rather than an ideological statement. Rather like my grandmother’s days when no woman left her house without wearing a hat. She wasn’t really dressed without a hat on.

(We use public buses etc a lot in Indonesia and are always amazed how women manage to keep their jilbab spotless and unwrinkled. 2 hours on a crowded public bus and we look like we’ve been dragged backwards through a coal mine!)

Over the years we’ve also had a lot of conversations with people working for gay rights or HIV prevention in Indonesia. You are very right about the cultural differences and how these require a different approach even though much is also the same as anywhere in the World.

Thanks again, and our very best wishes with your work too. We’ll think of you commuting down to Jakarta every day — at least you will get to catch up on all your reading :)

ps: We have also noted the rise in extremist groups moving into around Bogor in recent years. It is particularly saddening because Bogor has many happy memories for us. (We don’t even mind all the rain. Keeps the town nice and clean!). The photo I keep on my desk of Dale was taken at a food cart in Bogor late at night… it makes me quietly smile every time I look at it.

You obviously have never been to Indonesia before. Islam in here, is completely different than the one in the middle east. Even the middle eastern people doesn’t like us that much because we are more tolerant than any other. And middle eastern people who disagree with the over conservative view of their country, usually migrate to Indonesia.

The people in here aren’t more conservative than ever. However, the government is. And that includes the owner of media as well. That’s why you’re judgment are clouded, you only see the package, but never see the content.

“It’s a lot more to do with fashion than ideology. In fact, from my opinion, women who are wearing headscarf are much more open minded and reject conservatives ideas than the one who aren’t wearing one. But that’s just my experience.”

I know you frame this as your opinion, but that characterisation simply makes no sense at all. You want us to accept the premise that the person conforming to the blatantly inegalitarian religious superstition is more “open minded” than the person defying the broad social trend of adopting it?

Even if many women adopting headscarves are not genuinely religious, the kind of sheep who go along with the flock to avoid trouble are not the type to stick their neck out of for liberal causes, especially ones that do not directly relate to themselves. Since the headscarf serves the purpose of depersonalising women, the limited ability to express “fashion” through it does not pass the laugh test.

Are you sure you are not in denial about just how conservative Indonesia has become?

btw, even though many women are wearing jilbab these days, they are not more conservative than previous. It’s a lot more to do with fashion than ideology. In fact, from my opinion, women who are wearing headscarf are much more open minded and reject conservatives ideas than the one who aren’t wearing one. But that’s just my experience.

But as I said, most Indonesians are moderate. Even though they are not conservative, they are also not liberal. So, the approach for a discussion of sexual orientation is very tricky in here. Gay rights movement in Indonesia must be approached completely different than in the the western world.

Please stop insulting many of us with false equivalencies. In the name of religion people routinely carry out actual violent persecution of LGBT people, up to murdering us with the approval of the state. When LGBT people start to violently persecute religious people please come back with your ‘pity the poor ideology’ farce. Until then it is snarky words on the Internet versus murder, torture and imprisonment.

Also for all your ‘hate is hate ‘ rhetoric the record in Canada and Europe shows ‘hate speech’ laws are used most often by conservative Muslims to silence critics of Islam, both on the political left and right. Also the proponents of ‘hate speech’ just never seem to get around to removing blatant misogyny, homophobia, transphobia and general calls for violence against non-believers from ‘holy books’. Is that because ‘respect for faith’ always seems to trump human rights for women and sexual minorities?

For the others: it is more common in rural areas and towns. It’s also more common for the older generation. (Especially taking an evening stroll in that soft night air.) I wouldn’t advise two white guys to do it, we already look unexpected enough as it is. I also wouldn’t advise trying to do it during afternoon rush ‘hour’ in Jakarta :)

Uki, if you don’t mind me asking — which city do you live in? We first visited Indonesia in 1994 and it certainly was much more relaxed all those years ago. (most young women didn’t wear a jilbab in daily life, but now most do). Life does seem more tense these days, but hopefully things are also continuing to improve.

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Timothy I also meant to add: nice choice of photo. You picked what is probably the most iconic looking masjid in Indonesia! Pity about where it’s located though…