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	<title>Comments on: The Malawi Couple: Gay or Transgender? Or Something Else?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Lincoln Rose</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69514</link>
		<dc:creator>Lincoln Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jun 2010 08:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69514</guid>
		<description>This is a fine example of sensitive, multi-faceted discussion. And it&#039;s a great job of being an ally across cultures.

I think I will point people to this when they&#039;re wondering how to speak about trans issues when they&#039;re uncertain.

Thanks BTB!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a fine example of sensitive, multi-faceted discussion. And it&#8217;s a great job of being an ally across cultures.</p>
<p>I think I will point people to this when they&#8217;re wondering how to speak about trans issues when they&#8217;re uncertain.</p>
<p>Thanks BTB!</p>
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		<title>By: Kai</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69387</link>
		<dc:creator>Kai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 22:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69387</guid>
		<description>&quot;He or she&quot; may be nicely encompassing of all possibilities, but it&#039;s also a way of disengaging from the responsibility of respecting what she has said about herself.

It&#039;s not that I think that it&#039;s impossible that Ms. Chimbalanga may want to be referred to as &quot;he.&quot; I just think that we needn&#039;t insist on her telling us her whole life story before we make a logical deduction. It&#039;s awfully demanding to require her to say more than any other woman about her womanhood before we will call her &quot;she.&quot; She has told us enough for us to figure it out.

When I first came out as trans, sometimes people would literally pause and skip saying a pronoun in the middle of a sentence when referring to me (&quot;Is [pause] going to come with us?&quot;). To me, it is plainly obvious that I wanted to be referred to as the gender that I had just told them I was. This seems to be a similar situation to me. I wanted people to make that intuitive leap and figure out the obvious--if I just told you I identify as male, you should probably start calling me &quot;he.&quot;

Regarding Peter Tatchell, his letter reveals his own biases. He says that without more information it is wrong for us to call her she, yet he is fine with referring to her as a man? I get the feeling he simply does not understand trans issues. Given that, he&#039;s probably either asking the wrong questions, or lacking insight about the answers he&#039;s getting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He or she&#8221; may be nicely encompassing of all possibilities, but it&#8217;s also a way of disengaging from the responsibility of respecting what she has said about herself.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that I think that it&#8217;s impossible that Ms. Chimbalanga may want to be referred to as &#8220;he.&#8221; I just think that we needn&#8217;t insist on her telling us her whole life story before we make a logical deduction. It&#8217;s awfully demanding to require her to say more than any other woman about her womanhood before we will call her &#8220;she.&#8221; She has told us enough for us to figure it out.</p>
<p>When I first came out as trans, sometimes people would literally pause and skip saying a pronoun in the middle of a sentence when referring to me (&#8220;Is [pause] going to come with us?&#8221;). To me, it is plainly obvious that I wanted to be referred to as the gender that I had just told them I was. This seems to be a similar situation to me. I wanted people to make that intuitive leap and figure out the obvious&#8211;if I just told you I identify as male, you should probably start calling me &#8220;he.&#8221;</p>
<p>Regarding Peter Tatchell, his letter reveals his own biases. He says that without more information it is wrong for us to call her she, yet he is fine with referring to her as a man? I get the feeling he simply does not understand trans issues. Given that, he&#8217;s probably either asking the wrong questions, or lacking insight about the answers he&#8217;s getting.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69384</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 21:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69384</guid>
		<description>Harriet, 

I understand exactly what you are saying. I think however before we impose in Tiwonge a label, we should wait and see what label Tiwonge uses. 

We understand gender as being somewhat fixed, whether it matches birth sex or not because we think of gender as a rough set of traits which are less changeable. Many other cultures look at it in terms of roles. 

So if for example, Tiwonge is speaking about gender roles when saying he or she &quot;identifies as a woman&quot; rather than gender traits as we typically do here in the West, then labeling Tiwonge as a transgender person would be inspprppriate. Otherwise, househusbands everywhere would become transgender, as a more extreme example. but they aren&#039;t, if only because househusbands generally present their gender appearance according to their gender role</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harriet, </p>
<p>I understand exactly what you are saying. I think however before we impose in Tiwonge a label, we should wait and see what label Tiwonge uses. </p>
<p>We understand gender as being somewhat fixed, whether it matches birth sex or not because we think of gender as a rough set of traits which are less changeable. Many other cultures look at it in terms of roles. </p>
<p>So if for example, Tiwonge is speaking about gender roles when saying he or she &#8220;identifies as a woman&#8221; rather than gender traits as we typically do here in the West, then labeling Tiwonge as a transgender person would be inspprppriate. Otherwise, househusbands everywhere would become transgender, as a more extreme example. but they aren&#8217;t, if only because househusbands generally present their gender appearance according to their gender role</p>
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		<title>By: Harriet</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69381</link>
		<dc:creator>Harriet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 19:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69381</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry if this has already been brought up, I haven&#039;t read the comments that thoroughly.

I accept that different cultures have different understandings regarding gender and I don&#039;t question that. I would like to say, though, that transgender is used as an umbrella term for anyone who&#039;s gender identity and assigned sex do not neatly align. From this I&#039;d say that Tiwonge fits the bill perfectly. From the original post and the comments, it looks like people are confusing transgender with transsexual.

Excuse me if I&#039;m wrong - just wanted to throw that out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry if this has already been brought up, I haven&#8217;t read the comments that thoroughly.</p>
<p>I accept that different cultures have different understandings regarding gender and I don&#8217;t question that. I would like to say, though, that transgender is used as an umbrella term for anyone who&#8217;s gender identity and assigned sex do not neatly align. From this I&#8217;d say that Tiwonge fits the bill perfectly. From the original post and the comments, it looks like people are confusing transgender with transsexual.</p>
<p>Excuse me if I&#8217;m wrong &#8211; just wanted to throw that out there.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69187</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2010 23:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69187</guid>
		<description>Political correctness: Calling people what they want to be called. We used to call it being polite. Nothing wrong with that.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Political correctness: Calling people what they want to be called. We used to call it being polite. Nothing wrong with that.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason D</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69147</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2010 14:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69147</guid>
		<description>Urie, you&#039;re oversimplifying, this isn&#039;t political correctness, far from it. I generally find that when someone complains of &quot;politcal correctness&quot; it&#039;s because they either don&#039;t care or don&#039;t understand the issues involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Urie, you&#8217;re oversimplifying, this isn&#8217;t political correctness, far from it. I generally find that when someone complains of &#8220;politcal correctness&#8221; it&#8217;s because they either don&#8217;t care or don&#8217;t understand the issues involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Urie</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69131</link>
		<dc:creator>Urie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2010 02:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69131</guid>
		<description>It seems a bit counter-productive at this point to be worrying about pronoun usage or labels when two people are rotting in jail.  Let&#039;s get them out first and then figure out the political correctness of the situation.  As for Ms. Sandeen, she seems to have an enormous chip on her shoulder which is why I quit reading her daily diatribes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems a bit counter-productive at this point to be worrying about pronoun usage or labels when two people are rotting in jail.  Let&#8217;s get them out first and then figure out the political correctness of the situation.  As for Ms. Sandeen, she seems to have an enormous chip on her shoulder which is why I quit reading her daily diatribes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69061</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 14:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69061</guid>
		<description>Rob,

First of all, it is rather arrogant to suggest that the Western way of constructing gender and seuxality is the only way or the most advanced way. 

Because of the way we construct gender as being based on traits, gender ends up being looked upon as being much more static. In other cultures -- and it appear to me that some African cultures apply here -- gender is much more dynamic, and in some cases perhaps even situational. Our L/G/B/T boxes generally don&#039;t account for that, but it does not mean that it is any less valid of an experience.

But most importantly, and I cannt emphasize this enought, Tiwonge hasn&#039;t declared whether he or she is gay or transgender. And this is precisely why I&#039;ve avoided using BOTH terms to describe Tiwonge. 

You might be interested in reading a letter that UK activist Peter Tatchell wrote to Karen Ocamb. Tatchell has been in closer contact with Tiwonge and Steven than virtually anyone else. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lgbtpov.com/2010/05/peter-tachell-on-properly-identifying-tiwonge-chimbalanga-imprisoned-in-malawi/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here is his letter&lt;/a&gt;. The key parts are:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Tiwonge has not stated clearly to my contacts in Malawi how he/she wants to be referred to.

I have arranged Malawian prison visitors for the last four months. I have got them to ask Tiwonge about his/her gender identity but the answers are unclear.

I will get them to keep asking.

It would be wrong to refer to Tiwonge as ’she’ and ‘transgender’ unless we have express instructions / permission to do so from Tiwonge.

In the meantime, in my statements I have avoided labels like ‘gay’ and ‘he’; although I have referred to them as men as this is what they are legally, biologically and in terms of this prosecution.

Although they have been convicted of homosexuality, I suggest that we do not refer to Steven and Tiwonge as a ‘gay couple’ until these issues are clarified.

Currently, there is a measles outbreak in the jail, so last weekend’s prison visitors were not allowed to speak to S and T (only to hand them food parcels). The good news is that despite the very harsh 14-year sentence  both men seemed cheerful and positive.

Tiwonge has seen parts / some of my news releases and raised no objections to the way I have described him/her. I would have altered the wording if this had been requested.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,</p>
<p>First of all, it is rather arrogant to suggest that the Western way of constructing gender and seuxality is the only way or the most advanced way. </p>
<p>Because of the way we construct gender as being based on traits, gender ends up being looked upon as being much more static. In other cultures &#8212; and it appear to me that some African cultures apply here &#8212; gender is much more dynamic, and in some cases perhaps even situational. Our L/G/B/T boxes generally don&#8217;t account for that, but it does not mean that it is any less valid of an experience.</p>
<p>But most importantly, and I cannt emphasize this enought, Tiwonge hasn&#8217;t declared whether he or she is gay or transgender. And this is precisely why I&#8217;ve avoided using BOTH terms to describe Tiwonge. </p>
<p>You might be interested in reading a letter that UK activist Peter Tatchell wrote to Karen Ocamb. Tatchell has been in closer contact with Tiwonge and Steven than virtually anyone else. <a href="http://www.lgbtpov.com/2010/05/peter-tachell-on-properly-identifying-tiwonge-chimbalanga-imprisoned-in-malawi/" rel="nofollow">Here is his letter</a>. The key parts are:</p>
<blockquote><p>Tiwonge has not stated clearly to my contacts in Malawi how he/she wants to be referred to.</p>
<p>I have arranged Malawian prison visitors for the last four months. I have got them to ask Tiwonge about his/her gender identity but the answers are unclear.</p>
<p>I will get them to keep asking.</p>
<p>It would be wrong to refer to Tiwonge as ’she’ and ‘transgender’ unless we have express instructions / permission to do so from Tiwonge.</p>
<p>In the meantime, in my statements I have avoided labels like ‘gay’ and ‘he’; although I have referred to them as men as this is what they are legally, biologically and in terms of this prosecution.</p>
<p>Although they have been convicted of homosexuality, I suggest that we do not refer to Steven and Tiwonge as a ‘gay couple’ until these issues are clarified.</p>
<p>Currently, there is a measles outbreak in the jail, so last weekend’s prison visitors were not allowed to speak to S and T (only to hand them food parcels). The good news is that despite the very harsh 14-year sentence  both men seemed cheerful and positive.</p>
<p>Tiwonge has seen parts / some of my news releases and raised no objections to the way I have described him/her. I would have altered the wording if this had been requested.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69043</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 05:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69043</guid>
		<description>Your argument is only concerning about identity and semantics.  Transgender and intersexuality are not cultural phenomenons or social constructions; they are universal across all cultures, time periods, and is even documented in the animal kingdom.  This is hardly a euro-centric view, it is based on empirical and objective observations. Constructions such as two-spirited, kathoey or hirja are only interpretations of the transgender phenomena. 

This reminds me a lot of the so-called Cairo declaration of human rights, where the Muslims claimed that the concept of religious freedom and woman&#039;s rights are solely western ideas.  It&#039;s a crock that must be fought to the bitter end.  Just because the West arrived coherently to those principles first, doesn&#039;t mean it has a monopoly on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your argument is only concerning about identity and semantics.  Transgender and intersexuality are not cultural phenomenons or social constructions; they are universal across all cultures, time periods, and is even documented in the animal kingdom.  This is hardly a euro-centric view, it is based on empirical and objective observations. Constructions such as two-spirited, kathoey or hirja are only interpretations of the transgender phenomena. </p>
<p>This reminds me a lot of the so-called Cairo declaration of human rights, where the Muslims claimed that the concept of religious freedom and woman&#8217;s rights are solely western ideas.  It&#8217;s a crock that must be fought to the bitter end.  Just because the West arrived coherently to those principles first, doesn&#8217;t mean it has a monopoly on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/05/22/22871/comment-page-1#comment-69006</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 May 2010 18:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=22871#comment-69006</guid>
		<description>Imagine a meeting between a woman who recently immigrated from Tanzania and a black man who was raised in South Carolina.  They likely have no language, religion, culture, or experiences in common.

But they have more melanin in their skin and that is quite enough for those who might choose to hate or mistreat them.  And although this is surely an inconsequential shared common trait (wouldn&#039;t almost anything be more meaningful than melanin?), it is what makes them &quot;community&quot;.

So to do gay men, lesbians, and transgender people often have little in common.  Other than that - like the black South Carolinan and the Tanzanian - those who hate us can&#039;t tell us apart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imagine a meeting between a woman who recently immigrated from Tanzania and a black man who was raised in South Carolina.  They likely have no language, religion, culture, or experiences in common.</p>
<p>But they have more melanin in their skin and that is quite enough for those who might choose to hate or mistreat them.  And although this is surely an inconsequential shared common trait (wouldn&#8217;t almost anything be more meaningful than melanin?), it is what makes them &#8220;community&#8221;.</p>
<p>So to do gay men, lesbians, and transgender people often have little in common.  Other than that &#8211; like the black South Carolinan and the Tanzanian &#8211; those who hate us can&#8217;t tell us apart.</p>
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