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	<title>Comments on: Google to compensate for &#8220;Gay Health Insurance Tax&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71770</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jul 2010 15:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71770</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry Peter, I know everyone should respond to another person&#039;s arrogance with polite deference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry Peter, I know everyone should respond to another person&#8217;s arrogance with polite deference.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Ould</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71740</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Ould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71740</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re absolutely right that I was referring to Loving vs Virginia and not to the repeal of the miscegenation laws by the individual states themeselves. 
Thank you Priya and Pender for responding to my mistake in such a generous, graceful and un-insulting fashion. You&#039;ve certainly put me in my place. Well done you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re absolutely right that I was referring to Loving vs Virginia and not to the repeal of the miscegenation laws by the individual states themeselves.<br />
Thank you Priya and Pender for responding to my mistake in such a generous, graceful and un-insulting fashion. You&#8217;ve certainly put me in my place. Well done you.</p>
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		<title>By: Pender</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71739</link>
		<dc:creator>Pender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71739</guid>
		<description>&quot;While we might argue about the morality or otherwise of such a decision, surely the constitutional convention at that point became that the Federal Govt could overturn State law if it was immoral. Now, how would that work out if Congress believed gay marriage was immoral?&quot;

The Supreme Court overturned laws against interracial marriage. It&#039;s different from Congress, since it interprets the Constitution, and the Constitution -- unlike statutory law enacted by Congress -- is the supreme law of the land, not subject to the constraints of a vertical separation of powers.

To the extent you&#039;re expecting to receive a full course on American government and jurisprudence in the comments section of a blog, or to the extent you believe you have interesting observations to offer about the historical consistency of United States jurisprudence WITHOUT such basic background knowledge, you&#039;re laboring under something of a misapprehension. And while speaking from a position of ignorance is never praiseworthy, it&#039;s particularly unfortunate when your stream of consciousness (perhaps inadvertently) trivializes the equality of a minority in the process.

In other words, this is not a productive conversation. You need to learn a lot about the United States government before you can expect to opine intelligently on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;While we might argue about the morality or otherwise of such a decision, surely the constitutional convention at that point became that the Federal Govt could overturn State law if it was immoral. Now, how would that work out if Congress believed gay marriage was immoral?&#8221;</p>
<p>The Supreme Court overturned laws against interracial marriage. It&#8217;s different from Congress, since it interprets the Constitution, and the Constitution &#8212; unlike statutory law enacted by Congress &#8212; is the supreme law of the land, not subject to the constraints of a vertical separation of powers.</p>
<p>To the extent you&#8217;re expecting to receive a full course on American government and jurisprudence in the comments section of a blog, or to the extent you believe you have interesting observations to offer about the historical consistency of United States jurisprudence WITHOUT such basic background knowledge, you&#8217;re laboring under something of a misapprehension. And while speaking from a position of ignorance is never praiseworthy, it&#8217;s particularly unfortunate when your stream of consciousness (perhaps inadvertently) trivializes the equality of a minority in the process.</p>
<p>In other words, this is not a productive conversation. You need to learn a lot about the United States government before you can expect to opine intelligently on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Other Fred in the UK</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71737</link>
		<dc:creator>Other Fred in the UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71737</guid>
		<description>Peter, I don&#039;t know what 1967 Federal Acts you are referring to. Are you thinking of the Supreme Court of the United States case, Loving v. Virginia of the same year? My argument is that there was a convention that the Federal Government would recognise marriages recognised by the states, however that does not supersede the Constitution itself. In Loving the court ruled that the Virginia &quot;Racial Integrity Act&quot; of 1924 violated Mr &amp; Mrs Loving&#039;s rights enshrined within the Constitution. In my opinion, it does not follow that the Executive or Legislative branches of the Federal Government can ignore marriages recognised by the states on the grounds of immorality because the Judicial branch overturned certain marriage laws on the grounds of unconstitutionality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, I don&#8217;t know what 1967 Federal Acts you are referring to. Are you thinking of the Supreme Court of the United States case, Loving v. Virginia of the same year? My argument is that there was a convention that the Federal Government would recognise marriages recognised by the states, however that does not supersede the Constitution itself. In Loving the court ruled that the Virginia &#8220;Racial Integrity Act&#8221; of 1924 violated Mr &amp; Mrs Loving&#8217;s rights enshrined within the Constitution. In my opinion, it does not follow that the Executive or Legislative branches of the Federal Government can ignore marriages recognised by the states on the grounds of immorality because the Judicial branch overturned certain marriage laws on the grounds of unconstitutionality.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71730</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71730</guid>
		<description>Peter I never said you were using &quot;innovation&quot; as a pejoritive.  Its just dumb to use a word without a readily apparent meaning rather than the ones that have obvious and easily understood meanings.

I used to write technical documentation as part of my career.  One thing I learned early on is that if you want to be understood you should never take the easier way out of using two ambiguous words over a complete, if wordy, explanation.  Of course maybe you are less concerned with being understood than trying to appear clever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter I never said you were using &#8220;innovation&#8221; as a pejoritive.  Its just dumb to use a word without a readily apparent meaning rather than the ones that have obvious and easily understood meanings.</p>
<p>I used to write technical documentation as part of my career.  One thing I learned early on is that if you want to be understood you should never take the easier way out of using two ambiguous words over a complete, if wordy, explanation.  Of course maybe you are less concerned with being understood than trying to appear clever.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Ould</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71726</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Ould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71726</guid>
		<description>Priya,

I specifically said I was using the word &quot;innovation&quot; in its technical sense - something this is innovative. If you want to assume that I am applying it as a pejorative then you have failed to read my comments properly. As for &quot;constitutional settlement&quot;, perhaps Google is your friend? It&#039;s certainly much easier to just use two words rather than constantly writing &quot;the way over the past 250 years your country has ordered and adapted the relationship between the government of the individual states and the federal authorities&quot;.

Fred,

I think you raise an interesting point. Clearly since DOMA is still on the statute book there is not as yet a majority in Congress to repeal it. I&#039;m interested though by your exploration of the Utah issue. If there was a convention that federal government shouldn&#039;t interfere in the marriage laws of the individual states, surely that convention was first violated by the 1967 Federal Acts outlawing States&#039; racist miscegenation laws? In that case the Federal Govt acted to overturn the States&#039; marriage laws as they currently were. While we might argue about the morality or otherwise of such a decision, surely the constitutional convention at that point became that the Federal Govt could overturn State law if it was immoral. Now, how would that work out if Congress believed gay marriage was immoral?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya,</p>
<p>I specifically said I was using the word &#8220;innovation&#8221; in its technical sense &#8211; something this is innovative. If you want to assume that I am applying it as a pejorative then you have failed to read my comments properly. As for &#8220;constitutional settlement&#8221;, perhaps Google is your friend? It&#8217;s certainly much easier to just use two words rather than constantly writing &#8220;the way over the past 250 years your country has ordered and adapted the relationship between the government of the individual states and the federal authorities&#8221;.</p>
<p>Fred,</p>
<p>I think you raise an interesting point. Clearly since DOMA is still on the statute book there is not as yet a majority in Congress to repeal it. I&#8217;m interested though by your exploration of the Utah issue. If there was a convention that federal government shouldn&#8217;t interfere in the marriage laws of the individual states, surely that convention was first violated by the 1967 Federal Acts outlawing States&#8217; racist miscegenation laws? In that case the Federal Govt acted to overturn the States&#8217; marriage laws as they currently were. While we might argue about the morality or otherwise of such a decision, surely the constitutional convention at that point became that the Federal Govt could overturn State law if it was immoral. Now, how would that work out if Congress believed gay marriage was immoral?</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71721</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71721</guid>
		<description>Peter, what&#039;s this constitutional settlement you keep going on about? It&#039;d be nice if you&#039;d speak in plain english instead of using sillyness in its place such as referring to equal marriage/civil unions as &quot;innovations&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, what&#8217;s this constitutional settlement you keep going on about? It&#8217;d be nice if you&#8217;d speak in plain english instead of using sillyness in its place such as referring to equal marriage/civil unions as &#8220;innovations&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Other Fred in the UK</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71717</link>
		<dc:creator>Other Fred in the UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71717</guid>
		<description>Peter, as far as I am aware prior to the passing of the Federal Defence of Marriage Act, the Federal Government had &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; refused to recognise marriages recognised by the States (with the exception of specific couples suspected of being sham-marriages for the purposes of immigration). The fact that Utah was not allowed into the union until it had outlawed polygamy, precisely shows that the Federal Government of the time did not want to break the convention of recognising marriages recognised by the States. This convention has remained despite the variety of marriage laws of the states e.g. first cousin marriage. When Congress passed the Defence of Marriages act it specifically and deliberately broke this convention. I understand that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is suing the Federal Government because it considers that the Federal Government infringed its constitutionally protected rights by breaking that convention.

As attractive as your solution is, I suspect it may fall on particularly deaf ears at this time of year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, as far as I am aware prior to the passing of the Federal Defence of Marriage Act, the Federal Government had <i>never</i> refused to recognise marriages recognised by the States (with the exception of specific couples suspected of being sham-marriages for the purposes of immigration). The fact that Utah was not allowed into the union until it had outlawed polygamy, precisely shows that the Federal Government of the time did not want to break the convention of recognising marriages recognised by the States. This convention has remained despite the variety of marriage laws of the states e.g. first cousin marriage. When Congress passed the Defence of Marriages act it specifically and deliberately broke this convention. I understand that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is suing the Federal Government because it considers that the Federal Government infringed its constitutionally protected rights by breaking that convention.</p>
<p>As attractive as your solution is, I suspect it may fall on particularly deaf ears at this time of year.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Ould</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71715</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Ould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71715</guid>
		<description>But this is what I mean Emily. The Federal Govt clearly have a right to make that decision, they just haven&#039;t done so yet. QED - the problem is created by your constitutional settlement and not an anti-gay bias per se.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But this is what I mean Emily. The Federal Govt clearly have a right to make that decision, they just haven&#8217;t done so yet. QED &#8211; the problem is created by your constitutional settlement and not an anti-gay bias per se.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily K</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/01/23910/comment-page-1#comment-71714</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=23910#comment-71714</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Like it or not, there is not as yet a majority across the States in favour of the innovation, so rightly the Federal Govt has not as yet recognised it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually, a majority DO support &quot;some form of recognition&quot; for same sex couples. It&#039;s the word &quot;marriage&quot; that has a way to go. Our &quot;innovation&quot; as you put it does indeed have support.

And although the Federal Gov. is supposed to support the people, they do have a right to make moral decisions that are unpopular - such as recognizing the civil equality of all law abiding, tax-paying citizens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Like it or not, there is not as yet a majority across the States in favour of the innovation, so rightly the Federal Govt has not as yet recognised it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, a majority DO support &#8220;some form of recognition&#8221; for same sex couples. It&#8217;s the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; that has a way to go. Our &#8220;innovation&#8221; as you put it does indeed have support.</p>
<p>And although the Federal Gov. is supposed to support the people, they do have a right to make moral decisions that are unpopular &#8211; such as recognizing the civil equality of all law abiding, tax-paying citizens.</p>
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