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	<title>Comments on: The protest NOM does NOT want to see</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74384</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 12:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74384</guid>
		<description>&quot;Amazing Grace&quot;, besides being a thoroughly boring song, (a) has unpleasant associations with slavery (and no, Newman did not &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A22084599&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;repent&lt;/a&gt;&quot; before writing the song), and (c) is decidedly theocentric.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Amazing Grace&#8221;, besides being a thoroughly boring song, (a) has unpleasant associations with slavery (and no, Newman did not &#8220;<a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A22084599" rel="nofollow">repent</a>&#8221; before writing the song), and (c) is decidedly theocentric.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: B John</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74294</link>
		<dc:creator>B John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74294</guid>
		<description>Thanks Timothy. I&#039;m familiar with the Angels. 

I&#039;m just trying to remind everyone involved that any tiny thing NOM can latch onto as an intrusion or interruption will be inflated and reported as threat equal to armed insurrection.

I was reading one of their posts this weekend going on and on about protestors shouting to drown out the Lord&#039;s Prayer. I wasn&#039;t there, don&#039;t know if it&#039;s true, but you can bet a lot of &quot;good Christian folks&quot; reading that took great offense to it, and it does not help our cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Timothy. I&#8217;m familiar with the Angels. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m just trying to remind everyone involved that any tiny thing NOM can latch onto as an intrusion or interruption will be inflated and reported as threat equal to armed insurrection.</p>
<p>I was reading one of their posts this weekend going on and on about protestors shouting to drown out the Lord&#8217;s Prayer. I wasn&#8217;t there, don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s true, but you can bet a lot of &#8220;good Christian folks&#8221; reading that took great offense to it, and it does not help our cause.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74260</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74260</guid>
		<description>B John,

You make a good point about NOM seeking to instigate conflict.  But that is what the Angels are for.  They wear large wings which physically separate NOM from the counter protest until such time as the protest wants to be seen.  (If you saw the movie The Laramie Project, you saw their work)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>B John,</p>
<p>You make a good point about NOM seeking to instigate conflict.  But that is what the Angels are for.  They wear large wings which physically separate NOM from the counter protest until such time as the protest wants to be seen.  (If you saw the movie The Laramie Project, you saw their work)</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74259</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74259</guid>
		<description>Donnchadh,

I think perhaps that you are not recognizing the emotional connection of the song Amazing Grace to the movements in the United States for people seeking civil equality.  

And while it is true that John Newton was a slaver, he did not &quot;repent, but later.&quot;  But the time of the writing of &lt;i&gt;Amazing Grace&lt;/i&gt; in 1779 he had changed.  In fact in the 1780&#039;s he became an ardent abolitionist who worked with William Wilberforce.  (This is particularly relevant, because Brian Brown compares himself to Wilberforce at every NOM stop).

Like &lt;i&gt;We Shall Overcome&lt;/i&gt;, this song is evocative of both spirituality and of legitimate social grievance, two ideas that NOM is trying to claim monopoly upon.  And I am certain that Brian Brown will freak - he&#039;s undoubtedly convinced that the song belongs to his side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donnchadh,</p>
<p>I think perhaps that you are not recognizing the emotional connection of the song Amazing Grace to the movements in the United States for people seeking civil equality.  </p>
<p>And while it is true that John Newton was a slaver, he did not &#8220;repent, but later.&#8221;  But the time of the writing of <i>Amazing Grace</i> in 1779 he had changed.  In fact in the 1780&#8242;s he became an ardent abolitionist who worked with William Wilberforce.  (This is particularly relevant, because Brian Brown compares himself to Wilberforce at every NOM stop).</p>
<p>Like <i>We Shall Overcome</i>, this song is evocative of both spirituality and of legitimate social grievance, two ideas that NOM is trying to claim monopoly upon.  And I am certain that Brian Brown will freak &#8211; he&#8217;s undoubtedly convinced that the song belongs to his side.</p>
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		<title>By: B John</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74258</link>
		<dc:creator>B John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74258</guid>
		<description>Funny the last minute move of an entire rally. Just more evidence of the true intent of the tour...trying to get footage of them being &quot;threatened and intimidated,&quot; and nothing to do with having an actual successful rally.

I think that is a good plan for the Orlando event. However, what you can expect to see and hear from NOM is an increasing level of hate speech and actions to attempt to bait and antagonize the counter-protesters. My suggestion would be to have the counter protest in a completely different area. Their bus driver (apparently assigned the task of trying to get a rise from the counter-protestors) will be walking the line, and can easily find some young, enthusiastic person from whom he can get a rise.

Seriously, this tour thing came up right after the loss of their first suit to keep the donor list secret, when the only course of action left was to try for an exception based on fear. So they have to gin up evidence of potential violence and intimidation. So the timing makes it obvious, but so too do the results. They have no one at these things, yet don&#039;t seem to care. All it would take is one or two advance people hitting up the right churches, and they could eaily get out at least 100 or so. They don&#039;t care what the attendance is for their rallies, it&#039;s who they can attract in counter-protest.

Then, at each and every rally are the reports that the bus driver guy has had the camera out, always pointed on the counter-protestors (never at NOM&#039;s rally), and that he has actually baited a few of the counter-protesters.

PLEASE DON&#039;T FALL FOR THE TRAP. That is what this is all about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny the last minute move of an entire rally. Just more evidence of the true intent of the tour&#8230;trying to get footage of them being &#8220;threatened and intimidated,&#8221; and nothing to do with having an actual successful rally.</p>
<p>I think that is a good plan for the Orlando event. However, what you can expect to see and hear from NOM is an increasing level of hate speech and actions to attempt to bait and antagonize the counter-protesters. My suggestion would be to have the counter protest in a completely different area. Their bus driver (apparently assigned the task of trying to get a rise from the counter-protestors) will be walking the line, and can easily find some young, enthusiastic person from whom he can get a rise.</p>
<p>Seriously, this tour thing came up right after the loss of their first suit to keep the donor list secret, when the only course of action left was to try for an exception based on fear. So they have to gin up evidence of potential violence and intimidation. So the timing makes it obvious, but so too do the results. They have no one at these things, yet don&#8217;t seem to care. All it would take is one or two advance people hitting up the right churches, and they could eaily get out at least 100 or so. They don&#8217;t care what the attendance is for their rallies, it&#8217;s who they can attract in counter-protest.</p>
<p>Then, at each and every rally are the reports that the bus driver guy has had the camera out, always pointed on the counter-protestors (never at NOM&#8217;s rally), and that he has actually baited a few of the counter-protesters.</p>
<p>PLEASE DON&#8217;T FALL FOR THE TRAP. That is what this is all about.</p>
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		<title>By: Donnchadh</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74256</link>
		<dc:creator>Donnchadh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 20:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74256</guid>
		<description>This protest is theocentric. I can see the value of telling NOM they do not have a monopoly on faith; but this is part of a broader pattern that is ignoring the section of the LGBT movement that is not Judeo-Christian (the same thing is true of its opponents, may I add).
It would help if the prayer were recognized as a portion of the protest, and the umbrella protest focused on secular values of love and sexual freedom.
I also feel that &quot;Amazing Grace&quot; is something of a cop-out; it is a catch-all song that was composed by a slave trader (he repented, but later).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This protest is theocentric. I can see the value of telling NOM they do not have a monopoly on faith; but this is part of a broader pattern that is ignoring the section of the LGBT movement that is not Judeo-Christian (the same thing is true of its opponents, may I add).<br />
It would help if the prayer were recognized as a portion of the protest, and the umbrella protest focused on secular values of love and sexual freedom.<br />
I also feel that &#8220;Amazing Grace&#8221; is something of a cop-out; it is a catch-all song that was composed by a slave trader (he repented, but later).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark F.</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74254</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74254</guid>
		<description>HRC

Human Rights Campaign

Left-wing Democratic party front that refuses to use the word gay or lesbian despite the fact that it&#039;s supposed to be a gay rights group. Gets sidetracked by non-gay related issues like abortion, so it often turns off gay conservatives/moderates/libertarians. Has spent hundreds of millions of dollars with practically nothing to show for it. Famous for high staff salaries, lavish beltway parties, and brownnosing Democrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HRC</p>
<p>Human Rights Campaign</p>
<p>Left-wing Democratic party front that refuses to use the word gay or lesbian despite the fact that it&#8217;s supposed to be a gay rights group. Gets sidetracked by non-gay related issues like abortion, so it often turns off gay conservatives/moderates/libertarians. Has spent hundreds of millions of dollars with practically nothing to show for it. Famous for high staff salaries, lavish beltway parties, and brownnosing Democrats.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernie</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74251</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74251</guid>
		<description>@Richard, and Zeke,  Thanks Guys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Richard, and Zeke,  Thanks Guys.</p>
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		<title>By: TampaZeke</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74248</link>
		<dc:creator>TampaZeke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74248</guid>
		<description>This is the difference between a thoughtful and effective protest developed by people who understand that what feels good is not what&#039;s always most effective vs. a &quot;feel good&quot; but thoughtless and ineffective campaign waged by people with no experience but lots of enthusiasm.  I LOVE those people with little experience but lots of enthusiasm; they just need to be taught how to direct that enthusiasm in the most effective ways.

Bernie, I think Tim meant &quot;HRC&quot;, the Human Rights Campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the difference between a thoughtful and effective protest developed by people who understand that what feels good is not what&#8217;s always most effective vs. a &#8220;feel good&#8221; but thoughtless and ineffective campaign waged by people with no experience but lots of enthusiasm.  I LOVE those people with little experience but lots of enthusiasm; they just need to be taught how to direct that enthusiasm in the most effective ways.</p>
<p>Bernie, I think Tim meant &#8220;HRC&#8221;, the Human Rights Campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: cd</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/07/31/24922/comment-page-1#comment-74247</link>
		<dc:creator>cd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 17:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=24922#comment-74247</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I can only surmise that NOM made this change because they came to realize that Tampa had a large, well established, strongly organized, activist gay community with determination.&lt;/i&gt;

More likely because a lot of the American Christian missionary industry has relocated to Orlando in the past 15-20 years.  It&#039;s closer to Africa and has a much lower cost of living than Southern California- which has been overrun by liberals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I can only surmise that NOM made this change because they came to realize that Tampa had a large, well established, strongly organized, activist gay community with determination.</i></p>
<p>More likely because a lot of the American Christian missionary industry has relocated to Orlando in the past 15-20 years.  It&#8217;s closer to Africa and has a much lower cost of living than Southern California- which has been overrun by liberals.</p>
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