On this trip out of town, are you planning to run into Lisa Miller?

Have a nice trip. And if you ever decide that you actually want to communicate (rather than pontificate and play the martyr) I’ll be right here.

We can start by defining our terms in clear English.

Let me know if that ever appeals to you.

I am sure I have some misconceptions about some of you, as you do about me. Maybe that can still change. Thanks for sharing your mind and for allowing me to share mine.

Peace.

Ben, there are two words I am known for (by those who know me) more than any other: redemption and reconciliation. Scriptural authority? I’m also known for quoting that, left and right. Here, it does not seem to be welcome. It would only invite more ridicule and confusion.

“And you also admit that you have issues with it, in a ted haggard sort of a way, not in the bible-is-clear-about-this sort of a way.”

Excuse me, when have I said that? You read a lot into things that are not there.

You are not hoping against hope for me. Thanks. “It is finished.”

You wrote this in response to my little rant: “You don’t know how much I have lamented the Church’s mistakes and mistreatment of gay people. You want to guilt me by association into submission.
”

You’re right, I don’t know. But I’d be willing to bet which way you would vote if same sex marriage were on the ballot in your state. If I am wrong about that, I apologize.

But seriously, I never even thought that what I was writing was an attempt to guilt trip you into submission, though I do see your point. Frankly, i had already assumed that you feel no guilt or responsibility about what has been done to gay people for 2000 years under the benevolent auspices of Christianity.

If I am wrong about that, i apologize. But i don’t think I am wrong, if for no other reason, you just said it wasn’t going to happen.

I am sure that you do feel some guilt and responsibility, in a tsk-tsk sort of a way. After all, it’s not you who is leading religion based campaigns to make gay people criminals, to deny legal recognition to our families, to prevent us form serving our ocuntry unless we are willing to lie about it, and so on? you don’t have the baseball bat that killed Jose Suchinay (sp)in your basement. I know that.

The problem Debbie, is your whole belief system. Oh, i don’t mean the part about Jesus and love and not judging and going to church and all of that. Your religion is your business, and if it brings you happiness, more power to you. I sincerely believe that, and act in that way.

But your belief that gay is bad, and that gay is a sinful CHOICE to engage in sinful behaviour that can be undone with another choice, contributes mightily to the people that say that gay is bad, contrary to god’s will, needs to be punished, needs to be attacked, needs to be destroyed before it destroys us and our children.

I find it interesting that you say we are all sinful and broken and in need of redemption, at the same time as saying that gay people are in special need of redemption because they are gay. But you don’t say straight people are in special need of redemption because they are straight, but only because they are human.

You’re not willing to claim scriptural authority, as far as I can tell, just your own authority, based upon your spidey sense. And you also admit that you have issues with it, in a ted haggard sort of a way, not in the bible-is-clear-about-this sort of a way.

What if your take on sexuality is not true? What if God really doesn’t care what goes hwere on whom, but only that we use our sexuality responsibly and lovingly? That would seem to be a valuable message from god. Not the impossible: you must be straight even if omnipotence itself made you gay.

Your ideology is your premise, not what the bible says, and certainly not redemption. The Church used to burn witches and destroy Jews (and Cathars, among many others) with exactly the same appeal to Divine Will with which they now justify the treatment of gay people. We now know that bigotry against Jews is wrong, that it led to enormous consequences to them and the whole world, and that witches don’t exist. In other words, we learned something about the world, and advanced ourselves morally– well, some of us.

And yet, i have never heard one single explanation from a conservative anti-gay christian (or other) that explains why this insane prejudice against gay people, with its lethal consequences, is any different in any way from the problem of the witches or the problem of the Jews, and which also doesn’t ultimately boil down to oooh-gay-ickky.

If you just would leave it at “Gay is wrong for Debbie Thurman for whatever reasons she might have”, I would truly have no problem with it, other than to hope against hope that it works out well for you. But you don’t, because you really don’t have the humility you claim. you know what is right for other people as well, and you support the people who have no problem using the coercive power of the state to attack, demean, and disadvantage gay people.

It is just the consequence of your belief system. “What you are doing is wrong. I don’t like it. You must change.”

My corollary for the modern fundamentalist: “and if you don’t, have a nice time burning in hell forever. I tried to tell you.”

There is no evidence that anyone is stuck with Christianity either. You can change and be fixed. There is hope for you.

See? I can do that too.

Hmmm. All the exgay’s who have claimed to have changed their sexual orientation and later admit that it was never true. There is an enormous amount of evidence that people can’t change their sexual orientation. In fact, most of the best evidence has been provided by exgays and ex-exgays. By the way, how is Lisa Miller doing, and how is she supporting herself?

Good grief, Priya Lynn. That might be true if I had actually used the word change. I didn’t. Get some glasses. And learn to paraphrase correctly.

“Despite this very long thread, there is still no evidence that any one can change their sexual orientation. Debbie Thurman knows this as well as any of us.”

There is likewise no evidence (despite the plethora of long threads on all the blogs) that everyone is stuck in gay mode forever. So what’s your point, John? Back to old square one, aren’t we?

When you are ready to define the terms let me know.

I also didn’t misquote you Debbie, that was a paraphrase (note the lack of quotation marks). The difference between “can change” and “he changes” is of no significance – you lied, at one point you encouraged readers to believe gays can change orientation, said you were no longer gay and when pressed you contradicted yourself and said the “change is possible” slogan is wrong. You say whatever is convenient at the time to justify oppressing gays even when it contradicts what you’ve previously said – a lie is okay if it advances your goal of depriving LGBTs of love, romance, companionship and intimacy.

Now don’t respond to this because as you said my posts are “so many words, so much nothingness” and devoid of substance. I’m quite content to pick apart your lies for the sake of other readers.