Personally I don’t understand the need to herd everyone in one direction or the other. Sorry but my sexual identity really determines nothing about the rest of my life choices.

Why do I get the impression that you don’t know very many gay people. Your wild stereotypes are so far from reality that it is just laughable.

I agree that “gay men who don’t like gay culture deserve to have a voice too”, but why must it babble lunatic things?

“I’m ignorant for disagreeing with a theory you came up with out of whole cloth, which has no rationality, factuality, or data supporting it?”

It may sound weird to you, but that’s only because you’re so sheltered and haven’t paid attention to what “queer” people say. The whole reason why gay people WANT gay people to embrace being “queer” is to promote counter-culture as a good thing for gay people. They want gay people to be different, they want gay people to be other, and they thing that mainstream culture sucks. Furthermore, they regard any gay man who disagrees with that as an Uncle Tom. I’m happy you haven’t met any of these assholes, but just because you haven’t met them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Lots of Christians have never met an abortion clinic bomber.

Go watch the movie “Gay Sex in the 70s”.

“Pin, your idea of a gay seperatist is anyone who participates in gay culture, lives in a gay neighborhood for any reason, and marches in pride parades.”

I agree on the first and the third points, but not the second. After all, straight people live in gay neighborhoods. But on the other points, yes, the whole purpose behind gay culture and “pride” parades (they are parades by, for, and of gay culture, not gay people) is to promote the notion that gay people should be separate from straight culture, that marching in the street with a rainbow jockstrap, lipstick, and huge wings is the essence of “being gay”. I think that idea sucks, and you think it’s awesome. We really do represent two very different cultures, don’t we?

“Yet no one who fits this discription would agree with you, or support seperate but equal in any fashion.”

How do you know? Did you interview all of them? Obviously they don’t want to integrate if they live in a gay ghetto. They could live anywhere, but they chose to live there where they would be around as few straight people as possible. How’s that for fostering integration and acceptance of gay people? “Straight people suck! Let’s all move to a gay island.” Isn’t that the exact same thing the gay bashers want to do to us? Funny how theirs and your motives coincide.

“You apparently now include feminine men, something you seem to view as a choice rather than a personality trait.”

Of course it’s a choice. Just talk to any fruity gay man and you’ll eventually hear them talk about “rubbing it in people’s faces”, which is also a choice. Yes, please talk about how some people are “naturally feminine” with me, given that “femininity” differs from culture to culture and is a therefore a learned behavior.

“We’ve been through this before, I don’t buy it, and most people don’t buy it either.”

How do you know? Did you interview all of them?

The point is, I don’t care if you don’t agree with me. Gay men who don’t like gay culture deserve to have a voice too, and they deserve to have a voice that doesn’t talk with a affected lisp, particularly when it’s spoken by someone else and without their consent. Gay culture is destructive, and gay people deserve better than that. Perhaps you think that gay people deserve to be “queer” and deserve to live second-class lives outside of the mainstream. You probably think that gay culture and being gay are the exact same thing. Lots of gays suffer from that delusion. You’re wrong. Gay people who are coming out, take a first look at gay culture and do NOT like what they see, deserve to know that being gay doesn’t have to mean being part of gay culture.

If your lifestyle depends on a steady stream of chicken into your gay ghetto, then I understand why you would hate my message.

Pin, you need to review our conversations from previous threads. I’m not a gay seperatist. I’m not even sure they exist as in 10 years of being Out I have yet to meet one. It’s certainly possible.

In fact, one of the primary reasons for effeminacy in gay men is to coerce gay men into a “separate but equal” culture. I think you’re ignorant for disagreeing with that.

I’m ignorant for disagreeing with a theory you came up with out of whole cloth, which has no rationality, factuality, or data supporting it?
This is YOUR theory, that you periodically show up and try to peddle, which the commentors on this blog have rejected before and will again.

Let’s just review real quick…
Pin, your idea of a gay seperatist is anyone who participates in gay culture, lives in a gay neighborhood for any reason, and marches in pride parades. Yet no one who fits this discription would agree with you, or support seperate but equal in any fashion. You apparently now include feminine men, something you seem to view as a choice rather than a personality trait.

We’ve been through this before, I don’t buy it, and most people don’t buy it either.

“As Emily put it, you are projecting, which if I recall from previous threads –it’s one of your favorite things to do.”

I would be projecting if I denied it, which I don’t. Effeminacy in gay men is harmful to gay acceptance, particularly as it is expressed (is it okay for a gay person to “rub it in someone’s face” if they don’t like it?). In fact, one of the primary reasons for effeminacy in gay men is to coerce gay men into a “separate but equal” culture. I think you’re ignorant for disagreeing with that. In fact, it makes me feel sad to see how blithely you treat gay culture, as if it’s something that is, at worst, benign.

Do you oppose gay integration and gay acceptance? If you do, that would really make us enemies, wouldn’t it?

No, it just shows their ignorance. Misogyny among homosexuals isn’t offensive as much as it is sad.

” — something that is happening more and more frequently? How do you cope with it?”

Perhaps it is happening more and more frequently in your neck of the woods, but in mine, not so much. See, I’m in my 30′s and the men I run into(both straight AND gay) have matured enough that femininity is neither shocking nor disturbing to them. At most it’s boring.

As Emily put it, you are projecting, which if I recall from previous threads –it’s one of your favorite things to do.

Yes, it does. You have no right to disaprove of people who are harming no one.

“Riiiight, as if crowing about how macho you are is NOT defensive or insecure.”

Does it offend you when gay men express disapproval of effeminacy — something that is happening more and more frequently? How do you cope with it?

Right now, I see them building something new: a partisan organization that will be part of a web of individuals and organizations (mostly blogs for now) that will form Fox News watching, talk radio listening lesbians and gay men into a coherent and capable part of the Republican conservative propaganda and political action machine.

For instance, if you follow gaypatriot.org, after a while you might be surprised at how closely they stick to whatever the GOP conservative propaganda machine is saying, so close that it’s eerie (as in discomfiting and ominous).

Part of why these gay Republican conservatives are trying to get attention is to attract like-minded people to their organized presences. In part it’s because they’re lonely, and feel they need friends in the face of the majority of LGBT people who are dislike their politics, often intensely. But in part because they are building something that’s new.

Sure, we’ve always had LGBT conservatives, but they are different than they used to be. Pre-1992 Republican Convention conservative gay men were often aggressively out front about their gayness when around straight conservatives, and were likely to support what the rest of us supported, protection against hate crimes of all sorts and protection against discrimination. Back then, it was only the gay libertarians who were against these things.

Log Cabin-ers, as much as the rest of us criticized them, often made a point of refusing to support a GOP candidate who was anti-gay.

But the Republican party has changed, as has grassroots Republican conservatism. GOP conservatives feel the need to be much more unified and “with” the GOP conservative message. There used to be a tolerance of differences within Republican conservatism that is becoming increasingly rare. And the Republican Party since its ’92 convention and the ascendancy of Newt Gingrich has become more explicitly socially conservative, and more explicitly anti-gay.

It’s driven many of us away, and has caused many more of us who support it to do so conditionally, only at certain times or at arms length.

What’s left are a much smaller number of “true believers” in Goldwaterite/Reaganite conservatism. And they’re different as people from the old gay conservatives. The lesbians are now often bitter about their treatment by other LGBT people, especially by other lesbians, though still very strongly out front about their lesbianism. Many of the gay men, however, seem not to be, to the point of being almost embarrassed about their gayness. These conclusions are based on some years of personal experience with this type of lesbian and gay male conservative, which was increasingly unpleasant as time went on and finally intolerable after the election of Obama. You can see a lot of the same kinds of things on gaypatriot.org, especially in the comment sections.

My expectation is that these gay Republican conservatives will eventually be used as a strategic resource against liberals and Democrats and against LGBT unity, and that their relatively small numbers will be used capably by the GOP conservative machine as a martial artist uses a small amount of force to much greater effect. (There IS a possibility, though a much smaller one, that they will actually have some (limited) successes someday in blunting GOP homophobia.)

They ARE trying to cause consternation among the rest of us so it would be smart to withhold our more outre displays of disapproval, but it might also be wise to keep an eye on these new gay conservatives and maybe even learn something about them. Their psychology is alien to most of us. What you don’t understand CAN hurt you.