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	<title>Comments on: Frum: Did California&#8217;s Marrying Gays Destroy Bristol Palin&#8217;s Marriage?</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75261</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75261</guid>
		<description>werdna,

Thanks for a useful contribution to the discussion. 

While - at 13 years old - it is dated and his views may possibly have evolved, unless we hear otherwise I think we should assume that David Frum is not favorable towards same-sex marriage.  I&#039;d even say a harsh opponent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>werdna,</p>
<p>Thanks for a useful contribution to the discussion. </p>
<p>While &#8211; at 13 years old &#8211; it is dated and his views may possibly have evolved, unless we hear otherwise I think we should assume that David Frum is not favorable towards same-sex marriage.  I&#8217;d even say a harsh opponent.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75258</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75258</guid>
		<description>A certain thing happens when you assume Timothy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A certain thing happens when you assume Timothy.</p>
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		<title>By: werdna</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75249</link>
		<dc:creator>werdna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75249</guid>
		<description>A somewhat dated, but rather thorough, exposition of Frum&#039;s views on same-sex marriage can be found &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.slate.com/id/3642/entry/23841/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; in this debate between Frum and Andrew Sullivan. In case there was any doubt among readers here: he is unambiguously opposed to same-sex marriage. Perhaps a more avid follower of Frum&#039;s work could point us to a more recent example where he&#039;s soften on this, if such exists.

This recent column seems like more of the same material he&#039;s put out for years. Perhaps in rehashing his worn-out expostulations for the umpteenth time he got a bit sloppy and thus the confusion here.

I think that he, like Maggie Gallagher, has always fancied himself on the &quot;can&#039;t we discuss this with civility&quot; end of the spectrum of opponent of marriage civility. That he&#039;s been careful not to be too openly anti-gay, beyond his opposition to marriage equality, shouldn&#039;t lead us to conclude he&#039;s in any way friendly to LGBTs or is our ally politically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A somewhat dated, but rather thorough, exposition of Frum&#8217;s views on same-sex marriage can be found <a href="http://www.slate.com/id/3642/entry/23841/" rel="nofollow">here</a> in this debate between Frum and Andrew Sullivan. In case there was any doubt among readers here: he is unambiguously opposed to same-sex marriage. Perhaps a more avid follower of Frum&#8217;s work could point us to a more recent example where he&#8217;s soften on this, if such exists.</p>
<p>This recent column seems like more of the same material he&#8217;s put out for years. Perhaps in rehashing his worn-out expostulations for the umpteenth time he got a bit sloppy and thus the confusion here.</p>
<p>I think that he, like Maggie Gallagher, has always fancied himself on the &#8220;can&#8217;t we discuss this with civility&#8221; end of the spectrum of opponent of marriage civility. That he&#8217;s been careful not to be too openly anti-gay, beyond his opposition to marriage equality, shouldn&#8217;t lead us to conclude he&#8217;s in any way friendly to LGBTs or is our ally politically.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75246</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75246</guid>
		<description>Priya Lynn,

I assume that your response confirms that you don&#039;t actually have a link to an anti-gay Frum article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya Lynn,</p>
<p>I assume that your response confirms that you don&#8217;t actually have a link to an anti-gay Frum article.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75243</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75243</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re welcome to your opinion Timnothy, however baseless and wrong it may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re welcome to your opinion Timnothy, however baseless and wrong it may be.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75241</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75241</guid>
		<description>That is a cut and paste &lt;b&gt;about&lt;/b&gt; a Frum article.  Do you have a &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; link to a Frum article?

Third hand accusation isn&#039;t of any value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a cut and paste <b>about</b> a Frum article.  Do you have a <i>real</i> link to a Frum article?</p>
<p>Third hand accusation isn&#8217;t of any value.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75234</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75234</guid>
		<description>http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&amp;name=News&amp;file=article&amp;sid=1199&amp;mode=thread&amp;order=0&amp;thold=0</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&#038;name=News&#038;file=article&#038;sid=1199&#038;mode=thread&#038;order=0&#038;thold=0" rel="nofollow">http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&#038;name=News&#038;file=article&#038;sid=1199&#038;mode=thread&#038;order=0&#038;thold=0</a></p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75231</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75231</guid>
		<description>Priya Lynn, can you please provide a link to other anti-gay articles by David Frum?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Priya Lynn, can you please provide a link to other anti-gay articles by David Frum?</p>
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		<title>By: cd</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75191</link>
		<dc:creator>cd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75191</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Think for a minute: Why do people oppose same-sex marriage in the first place?  They do so because they fear that otherwise America&#039;s young people will end up like ... Bristol and Levi: having sex and raising children without regard to marriage.&lt;/i&gt;

Social scientists have looked at and shown why unwed childraising has increased so much: it&#039;s the low wage jobs (or in this economy, no jobs) that minimally educated young people get.

I&#039;m pretty sure Bristol and Levi will marry eventually.  They&#039;re making themselves pretty unmarriageable to anyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Think for a minute: Why do people oppose same-sex marriage in the first place?  They do so because they fear that otherwise America&#8217;s young people will end up like &#8230; Bristol and Levi: having sex and raising children without regard to marriage.</i></p>
<p>Social scientists have looked at and shown why unwed childraising has increased so much: it&#8217;s the low wage jobs (or in this economy, no jobs) that minimally educated young people get.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure Bristol and Levi will marry eventually.  They&#8217;re making themselves pretty unmarriageable to anyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Joehio</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/08/09/25224/comment-page-1#comment-75184</link>
		<dc:creator>Joehio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=25224#comment-75184</guid>
		<description>Frum is wrong to advocate forced marriages and he is wrong to associate gay marriage with the decline of straight marriage, however backhandedly he does it.

But mostly, he is just plain wrong because of what is missing in his essay: the tremendous socio-economic, technological and demographic shifts that we are living through.  The old suburban sprawl, oil- and car-based industrial economy is in its death throes.  The information age has begun, and we are living right now through an enormous transformation in society that is going to be just as traumatic for society as the early industrial revolution were.  The beginning years of the industrial revolution were also a time of great upheaval in social norms, men&#039;s and women&#039;s defined roles and it also broke up a lot of families and marriages.  It took some time for a new social consensus to build.  Whatever society is being born now, it is going to be unrecognisably different from the society our parents grew up in (so deftly portrayed in the show Mad Men).  But eventually there will be a new consensus on marriage and gender roles.  Bill Bishop and Richard Florida have written excellent books on this subject - &#039;The Big Sort&#039; and &#039;The Great Reset&#039;, among others.

David Frum is mostly wrong because he pretends the current situation of straight marriage is the result of some kind of unwise wish fulfilment, and he cannot see the forest for the trees.  This is inexcusable in somebody who would like us to think that he is one of our premier social commentators.  But I can see why he chooses to be wilfully blind to the transformations that Bishop and Florida talk about in their work, because those trends contain a lot of unpleasant truths for somebody who wants to cling to the tired old Reagan-Thatcher conservatism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frum is wrong to advocate forced marriages and he is wrong to associate gay marriage with the decline of straight marriage, however backhandedly he does it.</p>
<p>But mostly, he is just plain wrong because of what is missing in his essay: the tremendous socio-economic, technological and demographic shifts that we are living through.  The old suburban sprawl, oil- and car-based industrial economy is in its death throes.  The information age has begun, and we are living right now through an enormous transformation in society that is going to be just as traumatic for society as the early industrial revolution were.  The beginning years of the industrial revolution were also a time of great upheaval in social norms, men&#8217;s and women&#8217;s defined roles and it also broke up a lot of families and marriages.  It took some time for a new social consensus to build.  Whatever society is being born now, it is going to be unrecognisably different from the society our parents grew up in (so deftly portrayed in the show Mad Men).  But eventually there will be a new consensus on marriage and gender roles.  Bill Bishop and Richard Florida have written excellent books on this subject &#8211; &#8216;The Big Sort&#8217; and &#8216;The Great Reset&#8217;, among others.</p>
<p>David Frum is mostly wrong because he pretends the current situation of straight marriage is the result of some kind of unwise wish fulfilment, and he cannot see the forest for the trees.  This is inexcusable in somebody who would like us to think that he is one of our premier social commentators.  But I can see why he chooses to be wilfully blind to the transformations that Bishop and Florida talk about in their work, because those trends contain a lot of unpleasant truths for somebody who wants to cling to the tired old Reagan-Thatcher conservatism.</p>
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