However, I do not see that event as cause to automatically suspect the motivations of every Muslim in America.

I don’t either.

This is the logic I see coming from the opponents of the mosque:

I am not the opponents of the mosque and don’t speak for them. I’ve no idea what they think (assuming that they do).

Chris,

Don’t quote me and then argue against what someone else has said.

I will try not to conflate “sides” in the future.

And before you take a flying leap to conclusions about the question I asked Jason, go read his immediately preceding comment.

I agree with you that Jason D made an incorrect statement that 9/11 was not caused by adherents of a radical Islamic ideology.

However, I do not see that event as cause to automatically suspect the motivations of every Muslim in America.

—

This is the logic I see coming from the opponents of the mosque:
1) The perpetrators of 9/11 were Muslim.
2) The proprietors of the Mosque are Muslim.
3) Many people are offended by Muslims.
4) The Imam should bow to the majority’s offended sensibilities and not build the mosque.

What a shame. Here I was, hoping to partake in your high-minded intellectualism. But unfortunately, I remain a simpleton, a condition I am unable to escape. Perhaps you could enlighten people by slapping them until your hands are sore?

“You have taken a position where it is OK to call into question the motives of these people just for who they are, ”

Since you claim that these people’s motives are being questioned because they are Muslim, are you arguing that being Muslim is “who they are”? Is a belief system really “who you are”? Is holding a belief about whether a certain interstate highway should be built “who you are”? If a Muslim renounces Islam, does that change who he is?

Chris McCoy: “By the arguments of L. Junius Brutus, and Richard Rush, all Muslims are automatically evil, automatically terrorists, and automatically suspect.”

I’d like to see you prove that. But wait, don’t start trying until I get a bag of popcorn.

“The unspoken, but clearly evident accusation is that by extension, this Muslim Imam is evil, a terrorist, and suspect.”

I’m assuming you are talking about Rauf. Since he has not committed any terrorist acts that I know of, I would not call him a terrorist. However, his assertion that the US is an accomplice to 9/11, his favorable stand toward Sharia law and his refusal to denounce Hamas as a terrorist organization, along with his refusal to disclose where the $100 million is coming from, do make him suspect in my eyes.

“If the 9/11 terrorists were Christians would you equally oppose the building of any Christian church 2 blocks away from Ground Zero?”

Of course. Especially if the pastor blamed others for the attack, wanted to impose a theocracy in America, and refused to denounce Christian terrorist organizations.

“I still think the main question that still hasn’t been answered by any of the people opposed to the construction of the mosque is: At what distance away from Ground Zero (measured in discrete units of either blocks or miles) is it acceptable to build any Mosque?”

Heap-fallacy.

“As Jim has pointed out, the objection to the building of the Mosque is clearly its location – its proximity to Ground Zero. I do not think it is unreasonable to request a response.”

Really? I thought that the objection was because people opposed are ignorant, bigoted and stupid. I thought it was because they are racist.

Don’t quote me and then argue against what someone else has said.

And before you take a flying leap to conclusions about the question I asked Jason, go read his immediately preceding comment.

Geez… it’s like trying to talk to right-wing fundamentalists.

And my point, Jim, is that all this pushback would be (and was) absent any other discussion. This situation is being treated unlike any other (with the exception of Arizona’s immigration law).

Instead of conversation, there are accusations of racism, xenophobia and bigotry.

We all know how well that works with those who advocate against the gay community, did you think it would be more effective against me? I dismiss it out of hand because I know that I’m not racist, xenophobic, or a bigot.

I’m not the one acting in an atypical manner here.

By the arguments of L. Junius Brutus, and Richard Rush, all Muslims are automatically evil, automatically terrorists, and automatically suspect.

The unspoken, but clearly evident accusation is that by extension, this Muslim Imam is evil, a terrorist, and suspect.

When Priya Lynn and other atheists on this forum argue against the historical and factual atrocities of Christianity, you are quick to jump to the defense that not all Christians are evil, or terrorists, or suspect; and that those actions are the actions of specific people, and not indicative of Christianity as a whole, or other Christians by extension.

I see no such defense of the Imam and the Mosque.

The trouble that I have is that your statements about your objection to the building of the mosque are difficult to clearly discern:

I personally believe that the deaths on 9/11/01 were brought about by beliefs in the teachings of a radical branch of Islam. Do you disagree?

For me, this question implies, in the context of this discussion, that the reason the Mosque shouldn’t be built is because the 9/11 terrorists were Muslim. Or this particular Imam is an adherent of Radical Islam. Or that all Muslims are Radical.

It’s difficult to ascertain how that question has relevance to the discussion, outside of those assumptions.

If the 9/11 terrorists were Christians would you equally oppose the building of any Christian church 2 blocks away from Ground Zero?

I still think the main question that still hasn’t been answered by any of the people opposed to the construction of the mosque is: At what distance away from Ground Zero (measured in discrete units of either blocks or miles) is it acceptable to build any Mosque?

As Jim has pointed out, the objection to the building of the Mosque is clearly its location – its proximity to Ground Zero. I do not think it is unreasonable to request a response.

Whether you want to see it or not, it is obviously not our jobs anymore to enlighten you. You have taken a position where it is OK to call into question the motives of these people just for who they are, and think that because the entire nation is doing it with you, somehow it is excusable. We’ll see how that rationale fair after some time.

We’ll see how you react when the same attitudes are directed towards you and we’ll refer you to these pages.

I’m all for moderate Islam gaining more influence over the faith.

Your cut and paste might make sense if ANY of it was actually addressed either to me or to what I’ve said.

It is not.

You are angry with other folk and being unable to speak to them have decided to assign to me all of their attributes (real or imagined) and flay me by proxy. Your anger is not at what I’ve said but what you imagine that others think or believe and, mostly, that I’ve not joined your crusade to demonize them.

Really? According to Maggie Gallagher, yes. According to reality, no. I have certainly never done or seen it.

“I do not expect a simpleton to understand higher and complex concepts”

No, how could you ever expect me to understand the high philosophy that you are espousing! The though of it makes me feel small! High-minded things like:

This whole thing is so f*ck*ng racist is sickening.

Can anyone give me ONE good reason before I call you all again a bunch of ass backwards racists xenophobic fairies?

I feel so bad for being too simple and stupid to understand *gasps* all this! And all the concepts that you mentioned, simply incredible. Are you trying to come up with a new, better and improved version of Plato’s idea of the forms? You must be, because this is all so impressive! Are you a member of MENSA?

““sparing the feelings” (as if the Muslim community didn’t lose anyone on 9/11,”

Oh, it did. About 89 Muslims died on that day, of whom 1/5 were hijackers.

“They are daring to open this on the anniversary of 9/11, how dare they! As if they owed anyone an explanation for when they want to open their building”

Yes, they do owe us an explanation. Or we can continue to criticize them. In the world you imagine, these guys have every right to do whatever they want, while we have no rights – not even the right to question why that particular spot was picked, and why that particular day was picked out of the 365/366 available, and why that particular year was picked.

“You might not like it, you might refuse to see it, but the fact is that those comments, and the people who espoused those views are bigots. ”

That’s not a fact, that is merely your opinion – your wrong-headed opinion. Even a simpleton like myself can see that.

“And by the way, Muslims might not be an ethic group, but given the fact that most people in this country immediately relate Muslims with Arabs, then it is a racial issue. ”

*gasp* I never thought of it that way! (Well, except a while back in this very same comment section, where I refuted the idea.) And… because most people immediately relate Mormons to white people, Mormonism is a racial issue too. Criticism of Mormons is racism, because people want to attack white people. And because people associate people who play D&D with virgins, and virgins with conservative evangelical Christians, and because most conservative evangelical Christians are white, people who mock D&D actually hate white people. And because people associate mustaches with Italians, and Italians with the mafia, and the mafia with Sicily, and Sicily with the Greek metropoleis that originally founded Syracuse and the rest of Magna Graecia, and Greeks with homosexuality, any talk about mustaches actually concerns homosexuality! My God, I never knew that racism and bigotry in America was this bad!

“Not that I expect you to understand”

No, no, who could expect me to understand?

“Funny, the owners of this building have bent over backwards to make sure that their allegiances are not put into question and yet they are still called into question.”

Did Rauf bend over backwards by calling the US an accomplice to 9/11? Or by refusing to call Hamas a terrorist organization? Or by making clear where the $100 million is coming from? Oh, questions, questions, how inconvenient ye are!

“If you do not like being called for what your behavior and words implies, maybe you should change your behavior and words.”

Nope, maybe you should get better ‘behavior evaluation skills’.

“A xenophobe is easy to spot, just look for the suspect reasoning masked behind concern.”

Yay, now I’m only a xenophobe. Apparently, I got an upgrade, because earlier, you called me (and the 80% opposed to this mosque) a bigot and a racist.

Funny, the owners of this building have bent over backwards to make sure that their allegiances are not put into question and yet they are still called into question. They are in a no win situation, they do not owe anyone an explanation, they give it anyways only to meet xenophobic comments like yours with their innuendos and their half truth all shielded behind “concerns” and “patriotism”…

No wonder we keep getting our asses kicked. We are too ready to throw the stones at whomever seems more vulnerable that we are.

If you do not like being called for what your behavior and words implies, maybe you should change your behavior and words.

A xenophobe is easy to spot, just look for the suspect reasoning masked behind concern.