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	<title>Comments on: Lutheran Leader joins It Gets Better campaign</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82252</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2010 22:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82252</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s plenty of diversity of belief. I was brought up to be one of Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses (it didn&#039;t work). The Witnesses beliefs about Hell (and about a number of other things) are rather heterodox.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s plenty of diversity of belief. I was brought up to be one of Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses (it didn&#8217;t work). The Witnesses beliefs about Hell (and about a number of other things) are rather heterodox.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82237</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2010 19:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82237</guid>
		<description>TRiG,

While your selection of specific historical writers would seem to validate your assertions, a more thorough review of current theologies is readily available to anyone who wishes to review it.  

Your views are certainly valid from your perspective.  But those who are not anti-theistic may find a broader range of views and more complexity than anti-theists present.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TRiG,</p>
<p>While your selection of specific historical writers would seem to validate your assertions, a more thorough review of current theologies is readily available to anyone who wishes to review it.  </p>
<p>Your views are certainly valid from your perspective.  But those who are not anti-theistic may find a broader range of views and more complexity than anti-theists present.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82235</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Nov 2010 19:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82235</guid>
		<description>The belief that the default destination for the vast majority of humans is torment in the fires of Hell has been Christian Orthodoxy for years. It justified the Inquisition. It was certainly believed by Calvin, who thought the elect were very few in number. Sects differ, and many modern Christians have toned down both the torment of Hell and the proportion of people who go there.

And Edwards thought that people in heaven would positively enjoy watching the suffering of the damned, because it would make them feel more blessed.

&lt;blockquote&gt;When they shall see how miserable others of their fellow-creatures are ...; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, ... and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity; how they will rejoice!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Edwards was not a nice person.

For the full horrors and disgust of the Catholic belief in hell, I&#039;ll recommend the passage in Joyce&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Portrait of the Artist&lt;/i&gt;.

As a further anecdote, in &lt;i&gt;The God Delusion&lt;/i&gt; Dawkins tells the tale of a woman who was sexually abused as a child. Also, her best friend died when she was young. She was told that her friend was now in Hell, because she had belonged to the wrong religion. This woman now feels that the hellfire stories were a worse form of child abuse than the sexual abuse was.

Timothy Kincaid is misinformed about Christian theology. Whatever the beliefs of his own sect, it is certainly Christian orthodoxy that the vast majority of humans go to Hell. It may be less commonly believed these days, but it remains the belief of a great number of Christians.

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The belief that the default destination for the vast majority of humans is torment in the fires of Hell has been Christian Orthodoxy for years. It justified the Inquisition. It was certainly believed by Calvin, who thought the elect were very few in number. Sects differ, and many modern Christians have toned down both the torment of Hell and the proportion of people who go there.</p>
<p>And Edwards thought that people in heaven would positively enjoy watching the suffering of the damned, because it would make them feel more blessed.</p>
<blockquote><p>When they shall see how miserable others of their fellow-creatures are &#8230;; when they shall see the smoke of their torment, &#8230; and hear their dolorous shrieks and cries, and consider that they in the mean time are in the most blissful state, and shall surely be in it to all eternity; how they will rejoice!</p></blockquote>
<p>Edwards was not a nice person.</p>
<p>For the full horrors and disgust of the Catholic belief in hell, I&#8217;ll recommend the passage in Joyce&#8217;s <i>Portrait of the Artist</i>.</p>
<p>As a further anecdote, in <i>The God Delusion</i> Dawkins tells the tale of a woman who was sexually abused as a child. Also, her best friend died when she was young. She was told that her friend was now in Hell, because she had belonged to the wrong religion. This woman now feels that the hellfire stories were a worse form of child abuse than the sexual abuse was.</p>
<p>Timothy Kincaid is misinformed about Christian theology. Whatever the beliefs of his own sect, it is certainly Christian orthodoxy that the vast majority of humans go to Hell. It may be less commonly believed these days, but it remains the belief of a great number of Christians.</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82043</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82043</guid>
		<description>Werdna,

Priya Lynn is misinformed about Christian theology.

At the core of the &quot;hell&quot; doctrine (for most Christians) is the notion that reward or punishment are tied to free will.  The doctrine includes what is generally called &quot;the age of accountability&quot; and refers to the point beyond which a person is of significant maturity to decide to do good or ill and can comprehend the eternal consequences.

There are widely diverging opinions about the age of accountability and about hell itself (look up what the Adventists believe and how that differs from what Calvinists or Catholics believe) and most of that can be found on the internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Werdna,</p>
<p>Priya Lynn is misinformed about Christian theology.</p>
<p>At the core of the &#8220;hell&#8221; doctrine (for most Christians) is the notion that reward or punishment are tied to free will.  The doctrine includes what is generally called &#8220;the age of accountability&#8221; and refers to the point beyond which a person is of significant maturity to decide to do good or ill and can comprehend the eternal consequences.</p>
<p>There are widely diverging opinions about the age of accountability and about hell itself (look up what the Adventists believe and how that differs from what Calvinists or Catholics believe) and most of that can be found on the internet.</p>
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		<title>By: Priya Lynn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82042</link>
		<dc:creator>Priya Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82042</guid>
		<description>Werdna, hell is the default destination for all people regardless of age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Werdna, hell is the default destination for all people regardless of age.</p>
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		<title>By: werdna</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82041</link>
		<dc:creator>werdna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82041</guid>
		<description>How old *do* you have to be to go to hell then? I&#039;m not just being snarky, just being unchurched myself I&#039;m totally ignorant about what various sects (the one&#039;s that do believe in hell) believe about when or how one reaches the age of damnability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How old *do* you have to be to go to hell then? I&#8217;m not just being snarky, just being unchurched myself I&#8217;m totally ignorant about what various sects (the one&#8217;s that do believe in hell) believe about when or how one reaches the age of damnability.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82038</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82038</guid>
		<description>TRiG

When Edwards wrote Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, I don&#039;t think he had little children in mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TRiG</p>
<p>When Edwards wrote Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, I don&#8217;t think he had little children in mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy (TRiG)</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-82023</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy (TRiG)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-82023</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I am unaware of any Christian sects that believe “that little children not only will be – but should be – thrown into fire where their flesh will burn for eternity.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/jfb/huckfinn.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jonathan Edwards&lt;/a&gt;, prominent Calvinist theologian and, it seems, thoroughly nasty man?

TRiG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I am unaware of any Christian sects that believe “that little children not only will be – but should be – thrown into fire where their flesh will burn for eternity.”</p></blockquote>
<p>What about <a href="http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/jfb/huckfinn.pdf" rel="nofollow">Jonathan Edwards</a>, prominent Calvinist theologian and, it seems, thoroughly nasty man?</p>
<p>TRiG.</p>
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		<title>By: justsearching</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-81953</link>
		<dc:creator>justsearching</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Nov 2010 09:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-81953</guid>
		<description>Tom, it&#039;s precisely because some Christians feel some level of remorse (a sentiment antithetical to those felt by a sociopath) that homosexuals will be burning in Hell that they try to ensure homosexuals don&#039;t live out that lifestyle. They believe strongly that their views on Hell (and what causes people to go there) are right and they act upon those views.  And Tim&#039;s right, some Christians (some family members included) honestly think they are being loving for trying to interfere in people&#039;s lives. As much as this makes me cringe, I can understand the rational behind their actions.

The views expressed by this correspondent probably match the views of 10-15% of Americans (maybe more, maybe less) and it seems pointless to me to characterize this sizable segment of our opponents as sociopaths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, it&#8217;s precisely because some Christians feel some level of remorse (a sentiment antithetical to those felt by a sociopath) that homosexuals will be burning in Hell that they try to ensure homosexuals don&#8217;t live out that lifestyle. They believe strongly that their views on Hell (and what causes people to go there) are right and they act upon those views.  And Tim&#8217;s right, some Christians (some family members included) honestly think they are being loving for trying to interfere in people&#8217;s lives. As much as this makes me cringe, I can understand the rational behind their actions.</p>
<p>The views expressed by this correspondent probably match the views of 10-15% of Americans (maybe more, maybe less) and it seems pointless to me to characterize this sizable segment of our opponents as sociopaths.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/10/29/27628/comment-page-1#comment-81924</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2010 21:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=27628#comment-81924</guid>
		<description>Tom,

I caution against lumping the beliefs of all Christians together.  While a great many Christians believe in the existence of a hell, there are significant variations between what that means or even what qualifies one to &quot;go&quot; there.

A not-insignificant number of Christians believe hell to be less about &quot;painful, terrible fate&quot; and more about separation from God.  And I am unaware of any Christian sects that believe &quot;that little children not only will be – but should be – thrown into fire where their flesh will burn for eternity.&quot;

But you are quite right that a great many Christians operate under the assumption that &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; belief in hell entitles them to interfere in &lt;i&gt;your&lt;/i&gt; life.  They even think that it makes them &quot;loving&quot; to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,</p>
<p>I caution against lumping the beliefs of all Christians together.  While a great many Christians believe in the existence of a hell, there are significant variations between what that means or even what qualifies one to &#8220;go&#8221; there.</p>
<p>A not-insignificant number of Christians believe hell to be less about &#8220;painful, terrible fate&#8221; and more about separation from God.  And I am unaware of any Christian sects that believe &#8220;that little children not only will be – but should be – thrown into fire where their flesh will burn for eternity.&#8221;</p>
<p>But you are quite right that a great many Christians operate under the assumption that <i>their</i> belief in hell entitles them to interfere in <i>your</i> life.  They even think that it makes them &#8220;loving&#8221; to do so.</p>
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