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	<title>Comments on: Prop 8 Appeal</title>
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	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: werdna</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84596</link>
		<dc:creator>werdna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84596</guid>
		<description>My understanding is that before an appeal to the US Supreme Court there would likely be a petition by the losing side for en banc review (that is, a panel of 11 9th Circuit judges, rather than just the 3). Unless the proponents throw in the towel, this won&#039;t be over soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that before an appeal to the US Supreme Court there would likely be a petition by the losing side for en banc review (that is, a panel of 11 9th Circuit judges, rather than just the 3). Unless the proponents throw in the towel, this won&#8217;t be over soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Désirée</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84595</link>
		<dc:creator>Désirée</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84595</guid>
		<description>@Eric
correct - the Prop8 supporters, if found not to have standing, can&#039;t appeal the original Walker ruling to the Supreme Court, they can however, appeal the ruling that they don&#039;t have standing to the SC. So it is possible (although not probable) that the SC could find that the Prop8 people have standing in which case it goes back to the 9th circuit.  No idea if it goes back to the same panel, but my logic circuits say it would since they have already heard the appeals on the merits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Eric<br />
correct &#8211; the Prop8 supporters, if found not to have standing, can&#8217;t appeal the original Walker ruling to the Supreme Court, they can however, appeal the ruling that they don&#8217;t have standing to the SC. So it is possible (although not probable) that the SC could find that the Prop8 people have standing in which case it goes back to the 9th circuit.  No idea if it goes back to the same panel, but my logic circuits say it would since they have already heard the appeals on the merits.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84593</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 06:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84593</guid>
		<description>DPD,

I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong about this, but my understanding is that a judgement can be appealed but if there is no judgement (because the case is not heard due to lack of standing) then there is nothing to appeal to the Supreme Court.  You cannot skip levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DPD,</p>
<p>I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong about this, but my understanding is that a judgement can be appealed but if there is no judgement (because the case is not heard due to lack of standing) then there is nothing to appeal to the Supreme Court.  You cannot skip levels.</p>
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		<title>By: werdna</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84560</link>
		<dc:creator>werdna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 19:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84560</guid>
		<description>What happens now is we wait for the judges to issue a ruling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What happens now is we wait for the judges to issue a ruling.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84559</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 18:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84559</guid>
		<description>My favorite part was seeing Cooper trying to spin his way out of answering when he was asked, &quot;If there&#039;s no rational basis for taking away the RIGHTS of marriage from gays and lesbians, why is there as basis in taking away the TERM?&quot;

So what happens now? Is there further testimony or argument scheduled?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favorite part was seeing Cooper trying to spin his way out of answering when he was asked, &#8220;If there&#8217;s no rational basis for taking away the RIGHTS of marriage from gays and lesbians, why is there as basis in taking away the TERM?&#8221;</p>
<p>So what happens now? Is there further testimony or argument scheduled?</p>
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		<title>By: Regan DuCasse</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84555</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan DuCasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 17:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84555</guid>
		<description>I watched the proceedings at the West Hollywood City Hall, and there were several things that Cooper did that weren&#039;t accurate. 
He did place a lot on the standing of a deputy clerk who wasn&#039;t there to testify, and Cooper did admit that she wasn&#039;t a client and never had been.

  This appeared to be his strategy, that the defense of the repeal was confined to two CA counties, excluding Imperial county, that he DID represent. So therefore the extent of the overturn had no bearing on Imperial Co.

  He also kept saying that the AG and the governor refused to APPEAL, then said they refused to DEFEND Prop. 8 in Walker&#039;s court.
 That&#039;s actually a lie. There WAS representative from the AG&#039;s office in court, who did speak.
  But the state had no witnesses, and no precedents that could support THEIR case. 
  Walker gave each side PLENTY of opportunity to produce them, he allowed video depositions where he stated he preferred the witnesses to be in court, and once he made his decision, it was thoroughly described in an over 130 page transcript.

    After Walker&#039;s decision, when the defenders of 8 appealed, THAT is when the AG decided not to support the appeal.
  They saw a losing case and chose not to commit any more money and time (the state doesn&#039;t have) to an exceptionally WEAK CASE.

    But Cooper made it sound like they refused from the outset and therefore were derelict in their responsibility.

     Perhaps Brown should say something about that in his own defense. 
  
   The opposition is crying foul because Reinhardt didn&#039;t recuse himself, they are crying corruption as they did with Walker.

    They are also parsing, as Cooper did, that the judges, AG and the state didn&#039;t EVER defend Prop. 8, as if they had all the clear evidence, witnesses and VOTERS on their side and that&#039;s that.

     You can smell the resentment that the courts are involved at all, as if courts shouldn&#039;t and never DID participate in the defense of minorities or overturned discriminatory law.
 But our opposition doesn&#039;t see it as discrimination, except against voters.

    THEY brought this, by putting up a minority&#039;s rights up to it, then taking away rights already granted BY the Constitution.

      As Brian Brown&#039;s e-newletters hit, he has no idea that this is EXACTLY how histories&#039; worst haters and their political action behaved.
EXACTLY.

    If only he&#039;d pay attention to the timeline and how Nazis became so powerful.
Judges were accused, when the few who defended Jews and others were attacked just as NOM is doing.

    The Nuremberg trials were an example of the reach of Nazis to dispose of any defenders against Nazi encroachment on their own citizens.
  Without the Constitution and courts in place for protection, we can see that the courts and Constitution itself will be damaged.

    Sometimes I can&#039;t believe how unforgivably ignorant...and dangerous some people are while denying there is any resemblance to very RECENT issues that are there precisely so that anyone could know better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I watched the proceedings at the West Hollywood City Hall, and there were several things that Cooper did that weren&#8217;t accurate.<br />
He did place a lot on the standing of a deputy clerk who wasn&#8217;t there to testify, and Cooper did admit that she wasn&#8217;t a client and never had been.</p>
<p>  This appeared to be his strategy, that the defense of the repeal was confined to two CA counties, excluding Imperial county, that he DID represent. So therefore the extent of the overturn had no bearing on Imperial Co.</p>
<p>  He also kept saying that the AG and the governor refused to APPEAL, then said they refused to DEFEND Prop. 8 in Walker&#8217;s court.<br />
 That&#8217;s actually a lie. There WAS representative from the AG&#8217;s office in court, who did speak.<br />
  But the state had no witnesses, and no precedents that could support THEIR case.<br />
  Walker gave each side PLENTY of opportunity to produce them, he allowed video depositions where he stated he preferred the witnesses to be in court, and once he made his decision, it was thoroughly described in an over 130 page transcript.</p>
<p>    After Walker&#8217;s decision, when the defenders of 8 appealed, THAT is when the AG decided not to support the appeal.<br />
  They saw a losing case and chose not to commit any more money and time (the state doesn&#8217;t have) to an exceptionally WEAK CASE.</p>
<p>    But Cooper made it sound like they refused from the outset and therefore were derelict in their responsibility.</p>
<p>     Perhaps Brown should say something about that in his own defense. </p>
<p>   The opposition is crying foul because Reinhardt didn&#8217;t recuse himself, they are crying corruption as they did with Walker.</p>
<p>    They are also parsing, as Cooper did, that the judges, AG and the state didn&#8217;t EVER defend Prop. 8, as if they had all the clear evidence, witnesses and VOTERS on their side and that&#8217;s that.</p>
<p>     You can smell the resentment that the courts are involved at all, as if courts shouldn&#8217;t and never DID participate in the defense of minorities or overturned discriminatory law.<br />
 But our opposition doesn&#8217;t see it as discrimination, except against voters.</p>
<p>    THEY brought this, by putting up a minority&#8217;s rights up to it, then taking away rights already granted BY the Constitution.</p>
<p>      As Brian Brown&#8217;s e-newletters hit, he has no idea that this is EXACTLY how histories&#8217; worst haters and their political action behaved.<br />
EXACTLY.</p>
<p>    If only he&#8217;d pay attention to the timeline and how Nazis became so powerful.<br />
Judges were accused, when the few who defended Jews and others were attacked just as NOM is doing.</p>
<p>    The Nuremberg trials were an example of the reach of Nazis to dispose of any defenders against Nazi encroachment on their own citizens.<br />
  Without the Constitution and courts in place for protection, we can see that the courts and Constitution itself will be damaged.</p>
<p>    Sometimes I can&#8217;t believe how unforgivably ignorant&#8230;and dangerous some people are while denying there is any resemblance to very RECENT issues that are there precisely so that anyone could know better.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84553</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 17:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84553</guid>
		<description>DPD,

&lt;blockquote&gt;a question for timothy: if imperial county and the prop8 proponents are found not to have standing by this court, but that later on, the full court or the scotus finds that they do have standing and sends the case back to this level, would it be the same panel as today, or would it be a different panel?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good question.  And I don&#039;t know the answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DPD,</p>
<blockquote><p>a question for timothy: if imperial county and the prop8 proponents are found not to have standing by this court, but that later on, the full court or the scotus finds that they do have standing and sends the case back to this level, would it be the same panel as today, or would it be a different panel?</p></blockquote>
<p>Good question.  And I don&#8217;t know the answer.</p>
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		<title>By: L. Junius Brutus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84550</link>
		<dc:creator>L. Junius Brutus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84550</guid>
		<description>What disappointed me most, was that the judges seemed ready to give standing to the advocates for Proposition 8. That was the one chance to secure gay marriage in California while preventing the Supreme Court from ruling on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What disappointed me most, was that the judges seemed ready to give standing to the advocates for Proposition 8. That was the one chance to secure gay marriage in California while preventing the Supreme Court from ruling on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Scooter J</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84549</link>
		<dc:creator>Scooter J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84549</guid>
		<description>Awesome recap, thank you on behalf of all of us &quot;legally challenged&quot; readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome recap, thank you on behalf of all of us &#8220;legally challenged&#8221; readers.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/12/06/28272/comment-page-1#comment-84547</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=28272#comment-84547</guid>
		<description>Mormon Judge Randy Smith shouldn’t pay too much credence on the emphasis to the word “marriage”.  After all, his religion looks down at people who are simply “married” in a civil ceremony (as in a city hall, or on a ship, or in a chapel on the Las Vegas Strip).  “Real” marriages in Mormon parlance are called “Sealings” in their Temples.  So, a Mormon should not quibble about the word “marriage”. 

The editorial commentator on last night’s KSL NBC channel (owned by the Mormon Church) lamented about the demise of “marriage” or the institution of it.  But, in the montage of images of what is wrong with marriage, KSL used some pictures of gay men and of lesbians exchanging vows.   

Glaringly absent was not ONE picture of any polygamists.  

Some Mormons have selective reasoning…including the editorial board at their TV station.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormon Judge Randy Smith shouldn’t pay too much credence on the emphasis to the word “marriage”.  After all, his religion looks down at people who are simply “married” in a civil ceremony (as in a city hall, or on a ship, or in a chapel on the Las Vegas Strip).  “Real” marriages in Mormon parlance are called “Sealings” in their Temples.  So, a Mormon should not quibble about the word “marriage”. </p>
<p>The editorial commentator on last night’s KSL NBC channel (owned by the Mormon Church) lamented about the demise of “marriage” or the institution of it.  But, in the montage of images of what is wrong with marriage, KSL used some pictures of gay men and of lesbians exchanging vows.   </p>
<p>Glaringly absent was not ONE picture of any polygamists.  </p>
<p>Some Mormons have selective reasoning…including the editorial board at their TV station.</p>
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