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	<title>Comments on: Fallout of a police sting in a safe place</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: Not in PS</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-88415</link>
		<dc:creator>Not in PS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Feb 2011 20:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-88415</guid>
		<description>You failed to mention that three (3) of the five (5) Palm Springs City Council members are GAY, GAY GAY.

Also, the City Manager, David Ready, is GAY.

These self-hating opportunists supported the Police and the chief. 

Even AFTER the police chief testified and admitted what REALLY happened, NO COMMENT TO DATE from THE SELF-HATING city council.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You failed to mention that three (3) of the five (5) Palm Springs City Council members are GAY, GAY GAY.</p>
<p>Also, the City Manager, David Ready, is GAY.</p>
<p>These self-hating opportunists supported the Police and the chief. </p>
<p>Even AFTER the police chief testified and admitted what REALLY happened, NO COMMENT TO DATE from THE SELF-HATING city council.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87598</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jan 2011 15:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87598</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting article and a good discussion. As Timothy and JJ have said, if the police were really so interested in cracking down on inappropriate behavior they would have devised better ways of dealing with the situation than the entrapment policies they used and the charges that were designed to ruin people&#039;s lives. It turns out that in response to the sting, the police have said that they will no longer use decoys. But in the interests of justice, these charges should be dropped. What is the purpose of even going to trial? I hope that the taxpayers are aware of the enormous resources that have been expended on this case (15 officers over 4 nights, to say nothing of the legal bills, and the prospect of further legal action). Conservatives should be appalled at this waste, libertarians should be outraged at the prosecution of victimless crimes, and liberals should be really upset over the discriminatory enforcement of laws. I think the only people who would approve of this debacle must be religious extremists. It looks like the DA paid a price for his actions. I think perhaps the Mayor also did. I was considering donating to his campaign for the House of Represenatives (against Bono-Mack), but decided not to because of his failure to address the sting. One might expect police actions like this in very repressive areas of the country, but not in Palm Springs. The acquiescence of the city manager, the mayor, and the city council to the sting (and their subsequent failure to be outraged by it) makes one wonder whether it really makes any difference to have openly gay officials if they are so insensitive to the history of police abuse of gay citizens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting article and a good discussion. As Timothy and JJ have said, if the police were really so interested in cracking down on inappropriate behavior they would have devised better ways of dealing with the situation than the entrapment policies they used and the charges that were designed to ruin people&#8217;s lives. It turns out that in response to the sting, the police have said that they will no longer use decoys. But in the interests of justice, these charges should be dropped. What is the purpose of even going to trial? I hope that the taxpayers are aware of the enormous resources that have been expended on this case (15 officers over 4 nights, to say nothing of the legal bills, and the prospect of further legal action). Conservatives should be appalled at this waste, libertarians should be outraged at the prosecution of victimless crimes, and liberals should be really upset over the discriminatory enforcement of laws. I think the only people who would approve of this debacle must be religious extremists. It looks like the DA paid a price for his actions. I think perhaps the Mayor also did. I was considering donating to his campaign for the House of Represenatives (against Bono-Mack), but decided not to because of his failure to address the sting. One might expect police actions like this in very repressive areas of the country, but not in Palm Springs. The acquiescence of the city manager, the mayor, and the city council to the sting (and their subsequent failure to be outraged by it) makes one wonder whether it really makes any difference to have openly gay officials if they are so insensitive to the history of police abuse of gay citizens.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87059</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 23:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87059</guid>
		<description>JJ,

Your comment goes to the heart of virtually every police v. citizen conflict:  are the police there to make life better for all citizens, or are they there to slam down the &quot;perps&quot;?  Are they there to facilitate life or are they there to enforce the law as they see fit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JJ,</p>
<p>Your comment goes to the heart of virtually every police v. citizen conflict:  are the police there to make life better for all citizens, or are they there to slam down the &#8220;perps&#8221;?  Are they there to facilitate life or are they there to enforce the law as they see fit?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87057</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 23:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87057</guid>
		<description>TommiGunn,

Emily K is not part of our &quot;staff&quot;.  She&#039;s a regular reader and frequent commenter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TommiGunn,</p>
<p>Emily K is not part of our &#8220;staff&#8221;.  She&#8217;s a regular reader and frequent commenter.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Justice</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87053</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Justice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 22:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87053</guid>
		<description>As someone who got picked up by two quite different men looking for sex when I hitch-hiked through through Palm Springs more than three decades ago (&quot;Palm Springs is for sex.&quot; one of then said.), I would say that everybody needs to talk to the Dutch police about how they police the Vondelpark and other cruising areas to assure the safety and even comfort of both the people who go there for sex and the other users of the parks without setting up a fraudulent conflict between good people and bad people.  While many police officers know better, it is all too common that American police work is burdened with this false dichotomy.  From Joe Friday&#039;s Dragnet to all the permutations of CSI, we have been fed this attitude by decades of television programming, and now get an extra dose from Tea Party politics.  It really gets in the way of being realistic and appropriate about law enforcement.

Officers patrolling Warm Springs with an aim to assure public safety and help all the parties there understand that there are rules to be observed so that all parties get to go home minimally injured are far more likely to be called in to assist when things really go wrong and serious crimes are discovered.  Messages that more or less say, &quot;Be Polite,&quot; &quot;Play Safe,&quot; &quot;Play in Private,&quot; &quot;Even when You are having a Good Time, There Are Some Rules,&quot;  &quot;We are Here to Help You,&quot; and &quot;Call Us at_________&quot; are going to contribute far more to public safety and satisfaction than a program of abuse, however moralistic its excuses.  The officers involved will require a serious training program, but the good that can be done is huge.  I&#039;d even want them to publicly understand the Warm Springs part of their work as &quot;Cruise Director Squad on the Landlocked Love Boat,&quot; but I can see where some folks might find that going a bit too far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who got picked up by two quite different men looking for sex when I hitch-hiked through through Palm Springs more than three decades ago (&#8220;Palm Springs is for sex.&#8221; one of then said.), I would say that everybody needs to talk to the Dutch police about how they police the Vondelpark and other cruising areas to assure the safety and even comfort of both the people who go there for sex and the other users of the parks without setting up a fraudulent conflict between good people and bad people.  While many police officers know better, it is all too common that American police work is burdened with this false dichotomy.  From Joe Friday&#8217;s Dragnet to all the permutations of CSI, we have been fed this attitude by decades of television programming, and now get an extra dose from Tea Party politics.  It really gets in the way of being realistic and appropriate about law enforcement.</p>
<p>Officers patrolling Warm Springs with an aim to assure public safety and help all the parties there understand that there are rules to be observed so that all parties get to go home minimally injured are far more likely to be called in to assist when things really go wrong and serious crimes are discovered.  Messages that more or less say, &#8220;Be Polite,&#8221; &#8220;Play Safe,&#8221; &#8220;Play in Private,&#8221; &#8220;Even when You are having a Good Time, There Are Some Rules,&#8221;  &#8220;We are Here to Help You,&#8221; and &#8220;Call Us at_________&#8221; are going to contribute far more to public safety and satisfaction than a program of abuse, however moralistic its excuses.  The officers involved will require a serious training program, but the good that can be done is huge.  I&#8217;d even want them to publicly understand the Warm Springs part of their work as &#8220;Cruise Director Squad on the Landlocked Love Boat,&#8221; but I can see where some folks might find that going a bit too far.</p>
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		<title>By: TommiGunn</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87051</link>
		<dc:creator>TommiGunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 21:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87051</guid>
		<description>@Emily K    Your snarky comment failed to take in one thing; Timothy did not say he did or did not like untame sex or cruising. Or that he was puritanical or not. iDavid&#039;s comment was delivered in the spirit of inquisitive conversation. Yours was inciteful.

Perhaps your form of communicating could be a bit more amicable? As adults, more like to engage than disengage. Your subtext implies the latter, which seems rather childish and unproductive. 

I&#039;m amazed a blog would even have you as part of its staff with such a disabling attitude towards gay men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Emily K    Your snarky comment failed to take in one thing; Timothy did not say he did or did not like untame sex or cruising. Or that he was puritanical or not. iDavid&#8217;s comment was delivered in the spirit of inquisitive conversation. Yours was inciteful.</p>
<p>Perhaps your form of communicating could be a bit more amicable? As adults, more like to engage than disengage. Your subtext implies the latter, which seems rather childish and unproductive. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m amazed a blog would even have you as part of its staff with such a disabling attitude towards gay men.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily K</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87017</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87017</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, you sound somewhat puritanical. Have you never had a sowing-your-wild-oats period in your life?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Nothing in Timothy&#039;s article suggested any judgmental feelings about these sex resorts or anything against the men who operate or attend them.

So when a gay man doesn&#039;t like going to &quot;clothing optional&quot; resorts for untamed sex and doesn&#039;t enjoy cruising he&#039;s &quot;puritanical.&quot; awesome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Also, you sound somewhat puritanical. Have you never had a sowing-your-wild-oats period in your life?</p></blockquote>
<p>Nothing in Timothy&#8217;s article suggested any judgmental feelings about these sex resorts or anything against the men who operate or attend them.</p>
<p>So when a gay man doesn&#8217;t like going to &#8220;clothing optional&#8221; resorts for untamed sex and doesn&#8217;t enjoy cruising he&#8217;s &#8220;puritanical.&#8221; awesome.</p>
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		<title>By: iDavid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87005</link>
		<dc:creator>iDavid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 09:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87005</guid>
		<description>PS  Tim, thx for printing this. It&#039;s a good update and I will stay tuned to what you write about it. 

I am curious, did what I wrote above all fly over your head when you were there, or did you pick up on it? 
Also, you sound somewhat puritanical. Have you never had a sowing-your-wild-oats period in your life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS  Tim, thx for printing this. It&#8217;s a good update and I will stay tuned to what you write about it. </p>
<p>I am curious, did what I wrote above all fly over your head when you were there, or did you pick up on it?<br />
Also, you sound somewhat puritanical. Have you never had a sowing-your-wild-oats period in your life?</p>
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		<title>By: iDavid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-87004</link>
		<dc:creator>iDavid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jan 2011 08:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-87004</guid>
		<description>Having lived in PS and going there a lot from LA, I know that there is a strip a few blocks long where guys hang out in the Warm Sands area. But a lot of them are there to get freely invited into the resorts by people who have paid and are returning from outings. 

On the other hand there is lewd conduct that does arise, very discreetly however, very rare as guys want to go into the resorts. 

It&#039;s about $85 min for a room and lots of locals want the action but don&#039;t want to pay, hence the hang&#039;n out. So the bottom line is, guys don&#039;t go there to have public sex outside the resorts, so it&#039;s not really even a spot for focused playing around, outside that is. Cruising, yeh that&#039;s the big thing. But if they can&#039;t find someone to let them into the resorts, then boredom and mahem can erupt. And hot cops can make for buckling knees. Or they might get picked up by someone driving by, and the drivers drive veeery slooowly as they are there to cruise too, which is common. It&#039;s actually fab fun for sexual explorers. 

Glad the police are getting royally fuckt for the brash double standard. The main two are ones I&#039;d like to see shipped back over the border. Though I like Mexicans a lot, I&#039;m not into rotten enchiladas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having lived in PS and going there a lot from LA, I know that there is a strip a few blocks long where guys hang out in the Warm Sands area. But a lot of them are there to get freely invited into the resorts by people who have paid and are returning from outings. </p>
<p>On the other hand there is lewd conduct that does arise, very discreetly however, very rare as guys want to go into the resorts. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s about $85 min for a room and lots of locals want the action but don&#8217;t want to pay, hence the hang&#8217;n out. So the bottom line is, guys don&#8217;t go there to have public sex outside the resorts, so it&#8217;s not really even a spot for focused playing around, outside that is. Cruising, yeh that&#8217;s the big thing. But if they can&#8217;t find someone to let them into the resorts, then boredom and mahem can erupt. And hot cops can make for buckling knees. Or they might get picked up by someone driving by, and the drivers drive veeery slooowly as they are there to cruise too, which is common. It&#8217;s actually fab fun for sexual explorers. </p>
<p>Glad the police are getting royally fuckt for the brash double standard. The main two are ones I&#8217;d like to see shipped back over the border. Though I like Mexicans a lot, I&#8217;m not into rotten enchiladas.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/12/29360/comment-page-1#comment-86965</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 19:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29360#comment-86965</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I wonder how many men who were entrapped have already had to register with Califoria’s sex offender registry?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

None. If they are found guilty of the charge, they would then have to register. Also, the particular charge stipulates that because of the nature of the situation ONLY police officers would have access to a list of those who had to register. That&#039;s in contrast to the very PUBLIC exposition of other types of sex offender.

This community KNOWS this sting was a SHAM.

Timothy,
Your report is BETTER than our local newspaper here in the Palm Springs area.

The police chief RESIGNED last week. There was an avalanche of outrage over his slurs and the heat just got too intense.

I&#039;m hopeful about the new DA. Zellerbach appears to be an actual *sane* man compared to the MONSTER Pacheco. I&#039;m also getting vibes that there is now way these guys will go to trial under the present charges, or maybe at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I wonder how many men who were entrapped have already had to register with Califoria’s sex offender registry?</p></blockquote>
<p>None. If they are found guilty of the charge, they would then have to register. Also, the particular charge stipulates that because of the nature of the situation ONLY police officers would have access to a list of those who had to register. That&#8217;s in contrast to the very PUBLIC exposition of other types of sex offender.</p>
<p>This community KNOWS this sting was a SHAM.</p>
<p>Timothy,<br />
Your report is BETTER than our local newspaper here in the Palm Springs area.</p>
<p>The police chief RESIGNED last week. There was an avalanche of outrage over his slurs and the heat just got too intense.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m hopeful about the new DA. Zellerbach appears to be an actual *sane* man compared to the MONSTER Pacheco. I&#8217;m also getting vibes that there is now way these guys will go to trial under the present charges, or maybe at all.</p>
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