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	<title>Comments on: Southern Baptists kick out group that tolerates Broadway Baptist</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>By: John fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87680</link>
		<dc:creator>John fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Jan 2011 23:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87680</guid>
		<description>And that ladies and gentlemen
is why I love being an Unitarian-Universalist
                   Bless it be (:
                   uua.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And that ladies and gentlemen<br />
is why I love being an Unitarian-Universalist<br />
                   Bless it be (:<br />
                   uua.org</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87351</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87351</guid>
		<description>Throbert,

Baptists are not hierarchal in structure.

As lklouise notes, each convention (be it state or national or county) is not a franchise of a structured entity.  Congregations are autonomous and membership and participation in a convention are voluntary.

lklouise, thank you for the correction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Throbert,</p>
<p>Baptists are not hierarchal in structure.</p>
<p>As lklouise notes, each convention (be it state or national or county) is not a franchise of a structured entity.  Congregations are autonomous and membership and participation in a convention are voluntary.</p>
<p>lklouise, thank you for the correction.</p>
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		<title>By: L. Junius Brutus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87299</link>
		<dc:creator>L. Junius Brutus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87299</guid>
		<description>Not Baptists. Baptist Rhode Island was one of the few colonies tht had full religious freedom.

As for being self-righteous, the Anglican establishment cut off people&#039;s ears for dissenting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not Baptists. Baptist Rhode Island was one of the few colonies tht had full religious freedom.</p>
<p>As for being self-righteous, the Anglican establishment cut off people&#8217;s ears for dissenting.</p>
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		<title>By: MIhangel apYrs</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87296</link>
		<dc:creator>MIhangel apYrs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2011 13:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87296</guid>
		<description>fascinating:
these dissenters fled the mother country because they couldn&#039;t get toleration for their particular brand of fundieness (and their self-righteousness got up everybodies&#039; noses)

They arrive in the colonies and immediately start working for intolerance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fascinating:<br />
these dissenters fled the mother country because they couldn&#8217;t get toleration for their particular brand of fundieness (and their self-righteousness got up everybodies&#8217; noses)</p>
<p>They arrive in the colonies and immediately start working for intolerance</p>
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		<title>By: lklouise</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87258</link>
		<dc:creator>lklouise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 22:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87258</guid>
		<description>A little correction: The Baptist General Convention of Texas (BGCT, or &quot;Texas Baptists&quot;) is NOT a subsidy of the Southern Baptist Convention. In fact, a good many schools and seminaries that are BGCT outright disagree with the SBC (Baylor University, Truett Seminary, Logsdon Seminary). The BGCT takes a forward view of women as preachers (Baylor Religion&amp; Seminary especially) although they&#039;re still very much in the wrong (morally speaking) about their animosity towards LGBTQ people &amp; baptists. 
The BGCT allows any baptist church in texas from the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, Missionary Baptist (predominately African American baptist group) SBC, North American Baptist Peace Fellowship, or non-affiliated baptist churches to claim membership.

When the Southern Baptist Split (the Fundamentalist Takeover) happened, Texas Baptists hauled their asses out of there.. and became just conservative of moderate.  This is why, for instance, Baylor teaches Evolution along with it&#039;s poor stance on sexuality. Getting there, but not quite. There are a lot of mainstream and liberal baptists pushing towards a full inclusion of LGBT individuals.  A lot of them are only CBF or Rainbow Baptist affiliated congregations, but they exist in Texas. 

Anyway, calling the BGCT a &quot;statewide affiliation of the Southern Baptist Convention&quot; is factually incorrect and misleading. 

There is a SBCT - THAT is the Southern Baptist Convention of Texas. 


(and there&#039;s your news of the day from a member of the North American Baptist Peace Fellowship &amp; BGCT.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A little correction: The Baptist General Convention of Texas (BGCT, or &#8220;Texas Baptists&#8221;) is NOT a subsidy of the Southern Baptist Convention. In fact, a good many schools and seminaries that are BGCT outright disagree with the SBC (Baylor University, Truett Seminary, Logsdon Seminary). The BGCT takes a forward view of women as preachers (Baylor Religion&amp; Seminary especially) although they&#8217;re still very much in the wrong (morally speaking) about their animosity towards LGBTQ people &amp; baptists.<br />
The BGCT allows any baptist church in texas from the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, Missionary Baptist (predominately African American baptist group) SBC, North American Baptist Peace Fellowship, or non-affiliated baptist churches to claim membership.</p>
<p>When the Southern Baptist Split (the Fundamentalist Takeover) happened, Texas Baptists hauled their asses out of there.. and became just conservative of moderate.  This is why, for instance, Baylor teaches Evolution along with it&#8217;s poor stance on sexuality. Getting there, but not quite. There are a lot of mainstream and liberal baptists pushing towards a full inclusion of LGBT individuals.  A lot of them are only CBF or Rainbow Baptist affiliated congregations, but they exist in Texas. </p>
<p>Anyway, calling the BGCT a &#8220;statewide affiliation of the Southern Baptist Convention&#8221; is factually incorrect and misleading. </p>
<p>There is a SBCT &#8211; THAT is the Southern Baptist Convention of Texas. </p>
<p>(and there&#8217;s your news of the day from a member of the North American Baptist Peace Fellowship &amp; BGCT.)</p>
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		<title>By: Throbert McGee</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87254</link>
		<dc:creator>Throbert McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 21:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87254</guid>
		<description>I used the example of McDonalds limiting how much an individual franchise can depart from the corporate template, but a more pungent hypothetical has subsequently occurred to me:

Suppose that the San Diego chapter of PFLAG had become gradually taken over by NARTH and Exodus groupies who heavily promoted ex-gay therapy even while they paid lip service to gay rights from the other sides of their mouths -- and all the while operating publicly under the PFLAG banner. 

Wouldn&#039;t you &lt;i&gt;expect&lt;/i&gt; that PFLAG, at the national level, might push for the de-recognition and ouster of PFLAG-(San Diego) as a &quot;member in good standing,&quot; unless and until PFLAG-SD had repudiated the ex-gay jive? 

And would you be totally surprised if National PFLAG cautioned local chapters in San Francisco and Los Angeles and Reno, etc., that they should distance themselves from PFLAG-SD?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used the example of McDonalds limiting how much an individual franchise can depart from the corporate template, but a more pungent hypothetical has subsequently occurred to me:</p>
<p>Suppose that the San Diego chapter of PFLAG had become gradually taken over by NARTH and Exodus groupies who heavily promoted ex-gay therapy even while they paid lip service to gay rights from the other sides of their mouths &#8212; and all the while operating publicly under the PFLAG banner. </p>
<p>Wouldn&#8217;t you <i>expect</i> that PFLAG, at the national level, might push for the de-recognition and ouster of PFLAG-(San Diego) as a &#8220;member in good standing,&#8221; unless and until PFLAG-SD had repudiated the ex-gay jive? </p>
<p>And would you be totally surprised if National PFLAG cautioned local chapters in San Francisco and Los Angeles and Reno, etc., that they should distance themselves from PFLAG-SD?</p>
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		<title>By: L. Junius Brutus</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87232</link>
		<dc:creator>L. Junius Brutus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 18:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87232</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s not forget SBC&#039;s biggest sin: it actully split from the national Baptist organization because of anti-slavery sentiment among the national Baptists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s not forget SBC&#8217;s biggest sin: it actully split from the national Baptist organization because of anti-slavery sentiment among the national Baptists.</p>
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		<title>By: Throbert McGee</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87230</link>
		<dc:creator>Throbert McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 18:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87230</guid>
		<description>Regan -- I&#039;m not sure the issues are the same here, because dictating what self-identified &quot;Southern Baptist&quot; congregations are permitted do is quite different from trying to dictate what Christians may do, or what &quot;Real Americans&quot; may do.

Again, &quot;maintaining consistent brand identity&quot; is a valid concern, even if I personally dislike the brand and wouldn&#039;t touch it with a 10-foot pole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regan &#8212; I&#8217;m not sure the issues are the same here, because dictating what self-identified &#8220;Southern Baptist&#8221; congregations are permitted do is quite different from trying to dictate what Christians may do, or what &#8220;Real Americans&#8221; may do.</p>
<p>Again, &#8220;maintaining consistent brand identity&#8221; is a valid concern, even if I personally dislike the brand and wouldn&#8217;t touch it with a 10-foot pole.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan DuCasse</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87229</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan DuCasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 18:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87229</guid>
		<description>They did the same thing to those who supported integration and killing Jim Crow laws.
  They were highly critical of MLK and JFK having any SCLC delegates to the White House, let alone that JFK was a Catholic.
  And they weren&#039;t too reserved during the Red Scare and virtually totally backed Joe McCarthy and HUAC.

  Their members who were in opposition were a minority that got shut out just like this.
   Apparently so many of these groups easily forget such recent history as that.
A history with far more accuracy that isn&#039;t up to as much interpretation as the Bible or Constitution.
It&#039;s written in our plain language and which side of history eventually favored what.

     It&#039;s arrogant of some Christian groups to expect acceptance without challenge and judgment.
   When it&#039;s their ACTIONS that ultimately speak the volumes that deserve to be heard and then decent human beings will judge accordingly, as they should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They did the same thing to those who supported integration and killing Jim Crow laws.<br />
  They were highly critical of MLK and JFK having any SCLC delegates to the White House, let alone that JFK was a Catholic.<br />
  And they weren&#8217;t too reserved during the Red Scare and virtually totally backed Joe McCarthy and HUAC.</p>
<p>  Their members who were in opposition were a minority that got shut out just like this.<br />
   Apparently so many of these groups easily forget such recent history as that.<br />
A history with far more accuracy that isn&#8217;t up to as much interpretation as the Bible or Constitution.<br />
It&#8217;s written in our plain language and which side of history eventually favored what.</p>
<p>     It&#8217;s arrogant of some Christian groups to expect acceptance without challenge and judgment.<br />
   When it&#8217;s their ACTIONS that ultimately speak the volumes that deserve to be heard and then decent human beings will judge accordingly, as they should.</p>
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		<title>By: Throbert McGee</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2011/01/15/29501/comment-page-1#comment-87212</link>
		<dc:creator>Throbert McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2011 16:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=29501#comment-87212</guid>
		<description>After reading the story again, I have to concede that there&#039;s one sense in which the Southern Baptist Convention may have a point:

&lt;blockquote&gt;the Tarrant Baptist Association, the Tarrant County group of Southern Baptists, dared to be friendly with Broadway Baptist. In fact, they allowed them to be &lt;b&gt;part of the 395 churches that worked together in the county&lt;/b&gt; to provide support, outreach, and growth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The story doesn&#039;t make it clear, but were these &quot;395 churches&quot; ALL Southern Baptist, or was it officially a multi-denominational group (though under the auspices of the Tarrant Baptist Association) that cooperated to provide services to the county? 

If participation in the group is supposed to be limited to Southern Baptist congregations &quot;in good standing,&quot; then however much we may dislike the results, it&#039;s rationally defensible for the SBC to be pedantic sticklers about the rules -- because there&#039;s a &quot;Control Of Brand&quot; issue at work. It&#039;s like McDonalds being strict about how much individual franchisees are permitted to vary the prescribed corporate formula. 

(Of course, the SBC would probably say that their concern is with blocking the gradual encroachment of moral heresy within SB churches, rather than &quot;maintaining brand consistency&quot; -- but the principles aren&#039;t that different!)

&lt;b&gt;ON THE OTHER HAND&lt;/b&gt;, if the group of 395 churches is open to participation by Pentecostal churches and Methodist churches and Catholic churches and other Christian congregations who make absolutely no pretense of subscribing to every point of Southern Baptist theology, then to single out the gay-friendly congregation that happens to have &quot;Baptist&quot; in its name is a totally a**hole-ish move.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading the story again, I have to concede that there&#8217;s one sense in which the Southern Baptist Convention may have a point:</p>
<blockquote><p>the Tarrant Baptist Association, the Tarrant County group of Southern Baptists, dared to be friendly with Broadway Baptist. In fact, they allowed them to be <b>part of the 395 churches that worked together in the county</b> to provide support, outreach, and growth.</p></blockquote>
<p>The story doesn&#8217;t make it clear, but were these &#8220;395 churches&#8221; ALL Southern Baptist, or was it officially a multi-denominational group (though under the auspices of the Tarrant Baptist Association) that cooperated to provide services to the county? </p>
<p>If participation in the group is supposed to be limited to Southern Baptist congregations &#8220;in good standing,&#8221; then however much we may dislike the results, it&#8217;s rationally defensible for the SBC to be pedantic sticklers about the rules &#8212; because there&#8217;s a &#8220;Control Of Brand&#8221; issue at work. It&#8217;s like McDonalds being strict about how much individual franchisees are permitted to vary the prescribed corporate formula. </p>
<p>(Of course, the SBC would probably say that their concern is with blocking the gradual encroachment of moral heresy within SB churches, rather than &#8220;maintaining brand consistency&#8221; &#8212; but the principles aren&#8217;t that different!)</p>
<p><b>ON THE OTHER HAND</b>, if the group of 395 churches is open to participation by Pentecostal churches and Methodist churches and Catholic churches and other Christian congregations who make absolutely no pretense of subscribing to every point of Southern Baptist theology, then to single out the gay-friendly congregation that happens to have &#8220;Baptist&#8221; in its name is a totally a**hole-ish move.</p>
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